Thoughts on forfeit?

[Burtis449]

Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Burtis449

Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.

My goodness. Travisty? And why is there a little red squiggly line under it when I type that?

And you're looking at the book for a reason to forfeit a game? The referee always has the rule backing to do so, but that means little.

Forfeit is the nuclear option. It can be a career limiter. Someone on the crew needs to have a come-to-Jesus moment with an assistant coach. Continue to eject until you reach the person that will listen....or maybe they'll walk out, which makes a much easier report to write than "we forfeited the game."

Verbal judo here is a waste of time.

I agree with the comment above -- too many officials want to engage after a technical foul -- stick and move. Call it and don't be anywhere in the vicinity until after the free throws are shot. I don't care if he stands, rants, says stuff he shouldn't at that point, cause I'm nowhere near him. If I have to eject him there, it will be such that everyone knows why he's getting ejected.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Burtis449

Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.

Forfeit is the ABSOLUTE last option. One ejection of a head coach (that has left the vicinity) is NOWHERE close to that point.

[jeremy341a]

I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?

Because these things take on a life of their own. In the end, all anyone will remember is that you forfeited a game.

[APG]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?

For one, in a real (scholastic) game you didn't go to all the steps you could have...the forfeit is a last ditch...nuclear option and you went to it wayyyy too early. Second, it's easier to defend handing out T for behavior that you describe rather than going straight to a forfeit.

Why didn't you address the assistant first before giving him an ultimatum? Why didn't you just assess him a T? If the bench was being an issue, why didn't you direct the former/current head coach to address that? If he didn't do that, why didn't you pick out a single offender or assess a tech to the team if it was a collective effort?

As the kids are saying now...you went 0 to 100...too quick.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?

Do you really think the third guy is going to have a similar meltdown?

In fact, I've got a hunch the AC calms down if you warn. If not, you whack. If that doesn't work, you whack again and move on to the next guy.

[VaTerp]

The more I think about this the more ridiculous it sounds and IMO its really an unprofessional way to handle the situation. As noted above, this would be a definite career limiter here and would impact your future schedule VERY negatively.

Given how the 2 officials ultimately handled it I have to wonder if even the first T was justified. The coach threw the ball "very hard." Thats entirely subjective. OP, How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass that your partner caught then I don't know. Again HTBT but it sounds to me like you guys just stooped to the coach's level way too easily. If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard then a flagrant is justified but I'm just having a hard time envisioning this.

Regardless, after the 1st T you and your partner are paying way too much attention to the coach. Stick and move and get the game going. Then with the AC, if all that happened is what is described in the OP then, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. First you say he was "pacing and gesturing with his hands." Big deal! Tell him he doesnt have the privilege of a coaching box and sit his butt down. Then you say that you told him "if you don't sit and stop complaining then you will forfeit the game." That's awful IMO. You don't communicate in threats. Period. You let him know that by rule, he does not have the privilege of the coaching box, and you address his complaining like a professional official.

Also, you twice say you "replaced" your partner, which indicates to me that your partner was engaged with the HC and then the AC and you felt the need to physically go over and take over the conversation. Did you feel your partner not capable of handling these situations on their own? There are times when we switch positions to communicate something to a coach but "replacing" your partner as in the OP is a bad habit and in this case you made both situations MUCH WORSE.

Several responses here have affirmed or justified your actions here. But you are asking for feedback and I think its a disservice not to offer an honest opinion. This was a terrible way to handle this situation and one that I hope you can learn several things from in terms of dealing with coaches.

[jeremy341a]

By replaced I mean the SOP here is to switch with the partner who just called the T so that they are not in the T position.

As far as the speed of the ball. The first T was a quick underhand one armed throw.

Originally Posted by VaTerp

The more I think about this the more ridiculous it sounds and IMO its really an unprofessional way to handle the situation. As noted above, this would be a definite career limiter here and would impact your future schedule VERY negatively.

Given how the 2 officials ultimately handled it I have to wonder if even the first T was justified. The coach threw the ball "very hard." Thats entirely subjective. OP, How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass that your partner caught then I don't know. Again HTBT but it sounds to me like you guys just stooped to the coach's level way too easily. If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard then a flagrant is justified but I'm just having a hard time envisioning this.

Regardless, after the 1st T you and your partner are paying way too much attention to the coach. Stick and move and get the game going. Then with the AC, if all that happened is what is described in the OP then, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. First you say he was "pacing and gesturing with his hands." Big deal! Tell him he doesnt have the privilege of a coaching box and sit his butt down. Then you say that you told him "if you don't sit and stop complaining then you will forfeit the game." That's awful IMO. You don't communicate in threats. Period. You let him know that by rule, he does not have the privilege of the coaching box, and you address his complaining like a professional official.

Also, you twice say you "replaced" your partner, which indicates to me that your partner was engaged with the HC and then the AC and you felt the need to physically go over and take over the conversation. Did you feel your partner not capable of handling these situations on their own? There are times when we switch positions to communicate something to a coach but "replacing" your partner as in the OP is a bad habit and in this case you made both situations MUCH WORSE.

Several responses here have affirmed or justified your actions here. But you are asking for feedback and I think its a disservice not to offer an honest opinion. This was a terrible way to handle this situation and one that I hope you can learn several things from in terms of dealing with coaches.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

By replaced I mean the SOP here is to switch with the partner who just called the T so that they are not in the T position.

As far as the speed of the ball. The first T was a quick underhand one armed throw.

Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.

[walt]

Terp, I play modified men's softball over the summer and there are plenty of guys I know who can put a lot of speed and power on a ball underhanded. None of us were there and if the official thought the ball was thrown at him intentionally I can see the "T" and maybe even an ejection for that. As for the rest, I tend to agree with you that there a lot of different tools in the toolbox but sometimes, ending a bad situation is the best option. I have ended Men's wreck ball games because of the actions of the players/coaches. Wreck ball is different but given we weren't there, and did not work through and experience the entire game and actions of the bench, I just cannot say that the forfeit wasn't the best course. I will say, based upon the descriptions, it sounds like the T's were earned. As for the forfeit, I don't know. As for your suggestions that the assigner, school administration, the "league office", whatever, needed to be called and made aware, absolutely.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.

I don't think we have any basis to question the HC technical fouls. The AC, I think, should have been handled differently.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.

I value your opinion and do not feel like I was attacked. The throw was very hard and even brought the Oh's from the crowd when he did it. Not that the crowd decided the T, I was just pointing it out that many people thought it was excessive.

You are correct he was never told he didn't have the box. I was on my way there while he was yelling at us across the court. That is when I talked to my partner preceding the ending of the game.

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't think we have any basis to question the HC technical fouls. The AC, I think, should have been handled differently.

From the beginning I've said its a HTBT situation. But given the outcome and the fact that the OP asked I think its fair to question everything. I think the 2nd T on the HC could have been avoided had they gotten away from the coach and administered the FTs. Maybe not but I think its fair to question it.

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

I value your opinion and do not feel like I was attacked. The throw was very hard and even brought the Oh's from the crowd when he did it. Not that the crowd decided the T, I was just pointing it out that many people thought it was excessive.

You are correct he was never told he didn't have the box. I was on my way there while he was yelling at us across the court. That is when I talked to my partner preceding the ending of the game.

Thanks, I will defer to your judgement on the throw since you were there. You said there was tape. It would be really helpful if there was a way to share any of the video of what transpired in the last minute of this game.

As officials we often play things back in our heads and think of ways to do things differently and/or better. I commend you on your willingness to put things out there and take feedback.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass... If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard...

You could have grabbed the ball, thrown it back really hard at the coach's head and claim he had started a game of dodge ball!