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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 04:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Unfortunately, it's the officials who take the "who the @#[email protected]#$ cares" attitude who pass out techs like "candy at Halloween" because they do not have the ability or people skills to deal with situations (like these) when they occur.

One of the points of my previous post was NOT that an official has to control the emotions of the coach....it's that officials have to control THEIR own emotions. An emotional response usually results in skipping over several options and results in going directly to the most severe penalty possible.

EVERYONE has emotions and feelings. The people (be it players, coaches, officials, etc.) that are able to control their emotions and react appropriately to situations, are the ones who achieve the most success. The best officials work to resolve the problem by exhausting every possible option and only use a T as a last resort.

The OP asked for ideas on how to handle the situation differently. IMHO, there were several other ways to handle the situation than to simply end the game when it did.
Coaches would behave better if officials (as a whole) assessed more technical fouls.

Watch an NBA game once to see how much those officials take from coaches and players.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 05:03pm
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Originally Posted by JeffM View Post
Because I think it would be easier to write up a team for HC and AC ejections, I would just give the AC a technical foul and then, if needed, another technical foul. At that point, the AC is ejected and becomes the AD's problem.
This is where I come down on this too. To me it would have been much easier to whack the AC and let them know, one more and you're gone and then this turns into a forfeit, and none of us wants that. So let's just get through these 50 seconds and go home.

And why on earth is the AC pacing and ranting. He/she should have been sitting already, and especially after HC left.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 07:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Unfortunately, it's the officials who take the "who the @#[email protected]#$ cares" attitude who pass out techs like "candy at Halloween" because they do not have the ability or people skills to deal with situations (like these) when they occur.

One of the points of my previous post was NOT that an official has to control the emotions of the coach....it's that officials have to control THEIR own emotions. An emotional response usually results in skipping over several options and results in going directly to the most severe penalty possible.

EVERYONE has emotions and feelings. The people (be it players, coaches, officials, etc.) that are able to control their emotions and react appropriately to situations, are the ones who achieve the most success. The best officials work to resolve the problem by exhausting every possible option and only use a T as a last resort.
Are you the same "official" that has only given 2 T's in 5 years? You're putting the whole relationship onus between the coach and official on the official. That's BS. I don't buy into it, I don't buy into that chicken @#[email protected] philosophy and I don't hand out T's like candy. Maybe a handful of T's a year, of which maybe one or two is on a coach, and I certainly don't buy in to the belief that I have to carry all the responsibility in this deal.

I agree with your last paragraph, but it's so counter, because the successful officials hand out probably more T's than even I do.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 09:29pm
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This is a HTBT situation but based on my interpretation of the events as described there are several things I would advise to handle differently.

1) "The Coach continues to complain that he just passed him the ball like asked. I walk over and replace my partner. In which time the Coach keeps loudly complaining and gesturing with a final that's ridiculous thrown in. I issue a second technical foul and turn to walk away. It was approximately 25 seconds between technicals without a stop in complaining or him sitting. Is this too quick?"

I can't say if it was too quick for the 2nd T but I can say that it sounds like both you and your partner were hanging out way too LONG by the HC after issuing the initial T. I pregame that we treat coach Ts like boxing- stick and move. Everyone should get away from the coach. You should not have "replaced" your partner. Call the T, administer the FTs, and get the game going. If he's still standing then you quickly remind him he's lost the box and needs to have a seat. And then the 2nd whack if needed. You say 25 seconds had passed from the first T to the 2nd. Have we shot any FTs yet? Way too much time talking to the coach and its only asking for trouble to continue engaging the coach when he's acting like that. Stick him and get away, give him a moment to calm down, and then toss him if needed.

2) "While shooting the first two free throws the assistant V coach is complaining to my partner while pacing and gesturing with his arms. After the first two free throws I replace my partner and tell him that I'm thinking of a forfeit if the assistant Coach will not comply."

I've been in some hostile situations with coaches and my mind has never gone straight to a forfeit. Let the AC know he does not have the privilege of the coaching box and whatever words work for you to let him know that you and your partner have control of the game and he needs to focus on coaching. Whack him too if needed. But I just don't see how your mind goes straight to a forfeit and I would never threaten a forfeit in that manner.

Again, its a HTBT but it doesnt sound to me like a good job of handling the situation. It sounds like you and your partner engaged the coaches on poor terms and then went to the nuclear option rather quickly. Learn to be more direct and efficient in your discussions with coaches and perhaps develop more presence and command of the game. My assignors would be shocked and pissed if we had called a forfeit and then described what was in the OP.
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:03am
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Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:46am
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Originally Posted by Burtis449 View Post
Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.
My goodness. Travisty? And why is there a little red squiggly line under it when I type that?

And you're looking at the book for a reason to forfeit a game? The referee always has the rule backing to do so, but that means little.

Forfeit is the nuclear option. It can be a career limiter. Someone on the crew needs to have a come-to-Jesus moment with an assistant coach. Continue to eject until you reach the person that will listen....or maybe they'll walk out, which makes a much easier report to write than "we forfeited the game."

Verbal judo here is a waste of time.

I agree with the comment above -- too many officials want to engage after a technical foul -- stick and move. Call it and don't be anywhere in the vicinity until after the free throws are shot. I don't care if he stands, rants, says stuff he shouldn't at that point, cause I'm nowhere near him. If I have to eject him there, it will be such that everyone knows why he's getting ejected.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Ref: "If you don't sit down and stop complaining, then you will forfeit the game."
(Here comes the emotional response...)
Asst. Coach: "Go ahead then!"
(Instead of reflexive emotional response...)
Ref: "Coach, you don't really want to forfeit. Think about it...I'm sure your Athletic Director and Principal won't be happy with a forfeit. I understand you're upset and frustrated. I understand you don't like what has happened. Let's work together to simply get thru this game and finish it without any more problems. It's about the kids. Nobody wants a forfeit. Let's play...." Then get the game started again.
WAY too many words here. No time for a novella here.

Better, don't give the if-then at all. "Coach - ENOUGH." usually gets the point across. Another T should if that doesn't.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:50am
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Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
WAY too many words here. No time for a novella here.

Better, don't give the if-then at all. "Coach - ENOUGH." usually gets the point across. Another T should if that doesn't.
"Knock it off" is the baseball phrase that pays. It's quick, to the point, and there's no ambiguity.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 08:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtis449 View Post
Rule 5; Section 4; Art. 1 TRAVISTY
That team was making a "TRAVISTY" of the game. In my opinion you did the correct thing.
Forfeit is the ABSOLUTE last option. One ejection of a head coach (that has left the vicinity) is NOWHERE close to that point.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:29am
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I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:32am
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Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?
Because these things take on a life of their own. In the end, all anyone will remember is that you forfeited a game.
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Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 09:51am
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The more I think about this the more ridiculous it sounds and IMO its really an unprofessional way to handle the situation. As noted above, this would be a definite career limiter here and would impact your future schedule VERY negatively.

Given how the 2 officials ultimately handled it I have to wonder if even the first T was justified. The coach threw the ball "very hard." Thats entirely subjective. OP, How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass that your partner caught then I don't know. Again HTBT but it sounds to me like you guys just stooped to the coach's level way too easily. If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard then a flagrant is justified but I'm just having a hard time envisioning this.

Regardless, after the 1st T you and your partner are paying way too much attention to the coach. Stick and move and get the game going. Then with the AC, if all that happened is what is described in the OP then, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. First you say he was "pacing and gesturing with his hands." Big deal! Tell him he doesnt have the privilege of a coaching box and sit his butt down. Then you say that you told him "if you don't sit and stop complaining then you will forfeit the game." That's awful IMO. You don't communicate in threats. Period. You let him know that by rule, he does not have the privilege of the coaching box, and you address his complaining like a professional official.

Also, you twice say you "replaced" your partner, which indicates to me that your partner was engaged with the HC and then the AC and you felt the need to physically go over and take over the conversation. Did you feel your partner not capable of handling these situations on their own? There are times when we switch positions to communicate something to a coach but "replacing" your partner as in the OP is a bad habit and in this case you made both situations MUCH WORSE.

Several responses here have affirmed or justified your actions here. But you are asking for feedback and I think its a disservice not to offer an honest opinion. This was a terrible way to handle this situation and one that I hope you can learn several things from in terms of dealing with coaches.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:09am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?
For one, in a real (scholastic) game you didn't go to all the steps you could have...the forfeit is a last ditch...nuclear option and you went to it wayyyy too early. Second, it's easier to defend handing out T for behavior that you describe rather than going straight to a forfeit.

Why didn't you address the assistant first before giving him an ultimatum? Why didn't you just assess him a T? If the bench was being an issue, why didn't you direct the former/current head coach to address that? If he didn't do that, why didn't you pick out a single offender or assess a tech to the team if it was a collective effort?

As the kids are saying now...you went 0 to 100...too quick.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:25am
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By replaced I mean the SOP here is to switch with the partner who just called the T so that they are not in the T position.

As far as the speed of the ball. The first T was a quick underhand one armed throw.



Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
The more I think about this the more ridiculous it sounds and IMO its really an unprofessional way to handle the situation. As noted above, this would be a definite career limiter here and would impact your future schedule VERY negatively.

Given how the 2 officials ultimately handled it I have to wonder if even the first T was justified. The coach threw the ball "very hard." Thats entirely subjective. OP, How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass that your partner caught then I don't know. Again HTBT but it sounds to me like you guys just stooped to the coach's level way too easily. If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard then a flagrant is justified but I'm just having a hard time envisioning this.

Regardless, after the 1st T you and your partner are paying way too much attention to the coach. Stick and move and get the game going. Then with the AC, if all that happened is what is described in the OP then, I'm sorry, that's ridiculous. First you say he was "pacing and gesturing with his hands." Big deal! Tell him he doesnt have the privilege of a coaching box and sit his butt down. Then you say that you told him "if you don't sit and stop complaining then you will forfeit the game." That's awful IMO. You don't communicate in threats. Period. You let him know that by rule, he does not have the privilege of the coaching box, and you address his complaining like a professional official.

Also, you twice say you "replaced" your partner, which indicates to me that your partner was engaged with the HC and then the AC and you felt the need to physically go over and take over the conversation. Did you feel your partner not capable of handling these situations on their own? There are times when we switch positions to communicate something to a coach but "replacing" your partner as in the OP is a bad habit and in this case you made both situations MUCH WORSE.

Several responses here have affirmed or justified your actions here. But you are asking for feedback and I think its a disservice not to offer an honest opinion. This was a terrible way to handle this situation and one that I hope you can learn several things from in terms of dealing with coaches.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:32am
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Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
How did the coach throw the ball at your partner? If it was just a "hard" two hand chest pass... If the coach threw a baseball pass or really threw it that hard...
You could have grabbed the ball, thrown it back really hard at the coach's head and claim he had started a game of dodge ball!
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