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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 10:37am
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Thoughts on forfeit?

Under a minute remaining in the 4th. H is up 6. V Coach ends up with the ball after a foul called on his player on a play in which she stole the ball. After my partner reports the foul he turns and asks the Coach for the ball. The Coach is very loudly complaining while holding the ball. After asking a second time the Coach throws him the ball very hard. My partner issues a Technical foul. The Coach continues to complain that he just passed him the ball like asked. I walk over and replace my partner. In which time the Coach keeps loudly complaining and gesturing with a final that's ridiculous thrown in. I issue a second technical foul and turn to walk away. It was approximately 25 seconds between technicals without a stop in complaining or him sitting. Is this too quick?
While walking away the Coach yells and you're the guy I banned from calling any of our games so you got the opportunity to do it again. While shooting the six free throws the Coach makes his way to the locker room. On the next throw in a V player commits a common foul and then shoves the H player. My partner whistles her for a common foul and a Flagrant T. While shooting the first two free throws the assistant V coach is complaining to my partner while pacing and gesturing with his arms. After the first two free throws I replace my partner and tell him that I'm thinking of a forfeit if the assistant Coach will not comply. My partner says that is fine with him. I approach the assistant coach and tell him if he doesn't sit and stop complaining he will forfeit the game. His reply was "go ahead then." At this point we ruled the game a forfeit.
Thoughts on this? Was this too early to rule a forfeit? Should we have continued the game?

Last edited by jeremy341a; Tue Feb 17, 2015 at 10:50am.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 10:49am
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I have no idea what your specific rules are in your state that may govern when a forfeit happens. However, your primary job is to officiate a basketball game. That clearly wasn't taking place, and I have no problem with you deciding to call it. Especially since the play on the court began to get out of hand. By cutting bait you may have actually saved someone from injury,or yourself from becoming a youtube video. Cheers!
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:05am
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I think about the only thing you could have done differently is whacked the AC for his antics after the flagrant T prior to ruling a forfeit. However, I rather doubt that would've changed the outcome.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:07am
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If a coach throws a ball at me "very hard" he's done right then and there.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:08am
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I would've whacked the assistant pretty much the second he started "pacing and complaining". That may have shut everyone up and let you guys get back to basketball, but it might not have. Nothing wrong with ending the game here though.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 11:36am
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Why was he pacing at all? He didn't have a box.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I approach the assistant coach and tell him if he doesn't sit and stop complaining he will forfeit the game. His reply was "go ahead then." At this point we ruled the game a forfeit.
Thoughts on this? Was this too early to rule a forfeit? Should we have continued the game?
Food for thought...

Maybe it's just me, but when someone, who is clearly upset/emotional , is asked a "loaded" question ("Do you want me to?....") or issued a challenging statement ("If you don't ____, then I will ___!"), 9 out of 10 times you're going to get an emotional response - "GO AHEAD!".

Unfortunately, officials tend to respond in a similarly emotional way ("FINE!).

Although it is sometimes difficult, the officials need to be the calmest people in the gym/arena. I'm sure you didn't want to forfeit the game - nobody does...heck, I'm sure the coach didn't want to either. You simply have to get the coach to calm down.

Ref: "If you don't sit down and stop complaining, then you will forfeit the game."
(Here comes the emotional response...)
Asst. Coach: "Go ahead then!"
(Instead of reflexive emotional response...)
Ref: "Coach, you don't really want to forfeit. Think about it...I'm sure your Athletic Director and Principal won't be happy with a forfeit. I understand you're upset and frustrated. I understand you don't like what has happened. Let's work together to simply get thru this game and finish it without any more problems. It's about the kids. Nobody wants a forfeit. Let's play...." Then get the game started again.

An official can certainly "show 'em who's the boss" and forfeit the game. If that happens, I'm sure that the assignor, conference commissioner, AD's, & others "powers that be" will support the official. We both know that the official isn't ALWAYS right and that there is definitely more than one way to handle a situation. In my opinion, If I have to forfeit a game, then I feel like I didn't handle the situation as well as it could have been. It is only the extreme circumstance that calls for a forfeit; haven't personally experienced one in 15yrs of doing all levels from youth bball up to D2 college games....
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 12:48pm
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Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Food for thought...

Maybe it's just me, but when someone, who is clearly upset/emotional , is asked a "loaded" question ("Do you want me to?....") or issued a challenging statement ("If you don't ____, then I will ___!"), 9 out of 10 times you're going to get an emotional response - "GO AHEAD!".

Unfortunately, officials tend to respond in a similarly emotional way ("FINE!).

Although it is sometimes difficult, the officials need to be the calmest people in the gym/arena. I'm sure you didn't want to forfeit the game - nobody does...heck, I'm sure the coach didn't want to either. You simply have to get the coach to calm down.

Ref: "If you don't sit down and stop complaining, then you will forfeit the game."
(Here comes the emotional response...)
Asst. Coach: "Go ahead then!"
(Instead of reflexive emotional response...)
Ref: "Coach, you don't really want to forfeit. Think about it...I'm sure your Athletic Director and Principal won't be happy with a forfeit. I understand you're upset and frustrated. I understand you don't like what has happened. Let's work together to simply get thru this game and finish it without any more problems. It's about the kids. Nobody wants a forfeit. Let's play...." Then get the game started again.

An official can certainly "show 'em who's the boss" and forfeit the game. If that happens, I'm sure that the assignor, conference commissioner, AD's, & others "powers that be" will support the official. We both know that the official isn't ALWAYS right and that there is definitely more than one way to handle a situation. In my opinion, If I have to forfeit a game, then I feel like I didn't handle the situation as well as it could have been. It is only the extreme circumstance that calls for a forfeit; haven't personally experienced one in 15yrs of doing all levels from youth bball up to D2 college games....
Nice post. For anyone looking for ways to manage coaches, you might consider Verbal Judo - the Gentle Art of Persuasion. the author, a former beat cop among other things, talks about learning how to get people to do what he really wanted -- and part of that was figuring out what he really wanted them to do and what might induce them to do it. Not a be-all-and-end-all book, but interesting thoughts on managing other people. (As officials, we need to have confidence and thick skins, which leads many of us (like cops) toward more authoratarian models -- which aren't always the most conducive toward getting to the right place.)
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 01:10pm
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Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
Food for thought...

Maybe it's just me, but when someone, who is clearly upset/emotional , is asked a "loaded" question ("Do you want me to?....") or issued a challenging statement ("If you don't ____, then I will ___!"), 9 out of 10 times you're going to get an emotional response - "GO AHEAD!".
I agree that one needs to try and work together but who the @#[email protected]#$ cares. Why is the coach not responsible for his actions. Being emotional is not an excuse. If they can't control their emotions I'm certainly not going to do that for them.

I've also found that the more you interject and try to talk to a coach that is very upset, the worse things generally get.

I also have never had a forfeit, and what was described I wouldn't either (at least at the Varsity level or higher). I would just adjudicate the rules as needed, and if it lead to a forfeit because there were no more coaches left to coach, then I would forfeit the game.

From the OP, I generally don't agree with how they managed what was described.

All I think was needed, "Coach, you cannot stand the rest of the game unless it's for a timeout."

Make sure he hears it and move on. From there you can call a T if he doesn't comply, but give him a few seconds to sit.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 01:23pm
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I don't see myself ever threatening a forfeit. If it reaches that point, you just do it. As mentioned above, the AC apparently needed to be told that he has no box. Hopefully this happens seldom enough that they really don't know. Then proceed with a zero tolerance policy for any nonsense.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 01:57pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I don't see myself ever threatening a forfeit. If it reaches that point, you just do it. As mentioned above, the AC apparently needed to be told that he has no box. Hopefully this happens seldom enough that they really don't know. Then proceed with a zero tolerance policy for any nonsense.
This.

Doesn't seem to be much you could have done with the HC. The AC may be different, but he needs to know you can't behave that way regardless of how the refs are handling things.

"Coach, I know this probably never happens, so I want to make sure the expectations are clear. Once the HC got his T, the team loses the coaching box for the rest of the game. This means you can't stand and coach your kids. Speaking of coaching the kids, you're going to have to start focusing on that, because this isn't going to play out very well for your kids otherwise."

I'd say this all while standing next to him, if possible, so I don't have to yell it across the floor and show him up. I might even start with, "I'm saying this quietly so I don't show you up in front of the entire gym." You've got 6 FTs to shoot, plenty of time for this conversation.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 02:04pm
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Whether or not you choose to communicate briefly with the AC or try to talk him/her down I don't think I bring up forfeiting the game. Just keep calling what needs to be called as happens:

1) The report going to my assignor and the league now has an even greater body of evidence demonstrating the issues and fault.

2) At some point something will give anyway: A) The V teaam will get to a point with less then 1 minute to play where you can just let it end. B) They will progress to a point where you will not have to choose to forfeit but will be required by rule to end the game - lack of players, lack of coach, etc. Depending on your areas rules. I know for us as soon as there is no certified coach on the sideline the game ends.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 02:05pm
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Originally Posted by twocentsworth View Post
An official can certainly "show 'em who's the boss" and forfeit the game. If that happens, I'm sure that the assignor, conference commissioner, AD's, & others "powers that be" will support the official. We both know that the official isn't ALWAYS right and that there is definitely more than one way to handle a situation. In my opinion, If I have to forfeit a game, then I feel like I didn't handle the situation as well as it could have been. It is only the extreme circumstance that calls for a forfeit; haven't personally experienced one in 15yrs of doing all levels from youth bball up to D2 college games....
Honestly, I agree with most of what you said, but I don't think calling the game means the official failed. Sometimes, you have no recourse. Evaluated it? Absolutely, but blanket statements like this just aren't true, IMO.

I also don't think calling a forfeit should be considering a "show 'em who's the boss" move.

I think the OP actually thought it would help to let the AC know what the consequences were going to be. He miscalculated, but I don't think he was on a power trip. Once the AC responded the way he did, the OP was left with no choice after having backed himself into a corner.

That's precisely why I don't like making those absolute statements.

The good that will come from this.
1. HC now knows there are limits to what he can get away with. Not everyone requires a chair be thrown across the floor to call a 2nd T.

2. AC knows when the official warns him his actions may result in a bad result, he should probably stop.

3. HC knows he may not be able to trust his AC to take the reigns.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 04:26pm
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Because I think it would be easier to write up a team for HC and AC ejections, I would just give the AC a technical foul and then, if needed, another technical foul. At that point, the AC is ejected and becomes the AD's problem.
I've been told not to give a warning if I'm not willing to go through with it. It was good that you followed through with forfeiting the game.
I would block that team in the future.
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Old Tue Feb 17, 2015, 04:38pm
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I agree that one needs to try and work together but who the @#[email protected]#$ cares. Why is the coach not responsible for his actions. Being emotional is not an excuse. If they can't control their emotions I'm certainly not going to do that for them.
Unfortunately, it's the officials who take the "who the @#[email protected]#$ cares" attitude who pass out techs like "candy at Halloween" because they do not have the ability or people skills to deal with situations (like these) when they occur.

One of the points of my previous post was NOT that an official has to control the emotions of the coach....it's that officials have to control THEIR own emotions. An emotional response usually results in skipping over several options and results in going directly to the most severe penalty possible.

EVERYONE has emotions and feelings. The people (be it players, coaches, officials, etc.) that are able to control their emotions and react appropriately to situations, are the ones who achieve the most success. The best officials work to resolve the problem by exhausting every possible option and only use a T as a last resort.

The OP asked for ideas on how to handle the situation differently. IMHO, there were several other ways to handle the situation than to simply end the game when it did.
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