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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 10:57am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
By replaced I mean the SOP here is to switch with the partner who just called the T so that they are not in the T position.

As far as the speed of the ball. The first T was a quick underhand one armed throw.
Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:07am
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Terp, I play modified men's softball over the summer and there are plenty of guys I know who can put a lot of speed and power on a ball underhanded. None of us were there and if the official thought the ball was thrown at him intentionally I can see the "T" and maybe even an ejection for that. As for the rest, I tend to agree with you that there a lot of different tools in the toolbox but sometimes, ending a bad situation is the best option. I have ended Men's wreck ball games because of the actions of the players/coaches. Wreck ball is different but given we weren't there, and did not work through and experience the entire game and actions of the bench, I just cannot say that the forfeit wasn't the best course. I will say, based upon the descriptions, it sounds like the T's were earned. As for the forfeit, I don't know. As for your suggestions that the assigner, school administration, the "league office", whatever, needed to be called and made aware, absolutely.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.
I don't think we have any basis to question the HC technical fouls. The AC, I think, should have been handled differently.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I am asking this as an honest question and not as a way of validating what I did. Why is the forfeit such a terrible option? Why do we need to play the last few seconds. We have had a Coach tossed (a rarity here), a player tossed (a rarity here), players clapping and gesturing sarcastically ( i left this out originally as I forgot it until I watched the tape), and now an assistant coach who won't sit and it very loudly complaining from 20 feet while standing near half court? What point would you draw the line? What if the assistant gets two and tossed, do we give the third guy a chance, and if he acts the same?
Do you really think the third guy is going to have a similar meltdown?

In fact, I've got a hunch the AC calms down if you warn. If not, you whack. If that doesn't work, you whack again and move on to the next guy.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VaTerp View Post
Thanks for the clarifications. I know I'm using strong words here and don't want it to sound like an attack. I'm just offering my opinion and hope its helpful.

I'm having a difficult time imagining a quick underhand throw of the ball "hard" enough that would make me T the coach. And I have a better understanding of what you mean by replace but I would strongly advise subscribing to the stick and move theory and both you and your partner get away after whacking a coach. Ejection of HC could have been avoided here.

As APG said, I just don't think you and your partner used many of the tools available to you as officials to calm the situation and finish the last minute of the game. And I find it a little scary that you have to ask why a forfeit is a terrible option.

Bottom line is what you had does not seem to be that out of the ordinary but your result definitely was. Calling a forfeit in a scholastic game is something that would stay with you for the rest of your career here and not in a good way.

You basically described a coach who did a quick underhand toss of the ball back to your partner, a dead ball push, and the rest is "complaining, pacing and gesturing" by an Asst Coach who was never told he didnt have the box, and clapping and gesturing by the bench." I'd bet good money that somewhere in HS basketball there are games every week that have much more than this take place and the officials don't even think of calling a forfeit.
Issue all the Ts you need to, send an email to your assignor, scratch the coach, file a report, etc. I just don't see any justification here for going to the nuclear option.

I value your opinion and do not feel like I was attacked. The throw was very hard and even brought the Oh's from the crowd when he did it. Not that the crowd decided the T, I was just pointing it out that many people thought it was excessive.

You are correct he was never told he didn't have the box. I was on my way there while he was yelling at us across the court. That is when I talked to my partner preceding the ending of the game.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 12:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I don't think we have any basis to question the HC technical fouls. The AC, I think, should have been handled differently.
From the beginning I've said its a HTBT situation. But given the outcome and the fact that the OP asked I think its fair to question everything. I think the 2nd T on the HC could have been avoided had they gotten away from the coach and administered the FTs. Maybe not but I think its fair to question it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I value your opinion and do not feel like I was attacked. The throw was very hard and even brought the Oh's from the crowd when he did it. Not that the crowd decided the T, I was just pointing it out that many people thought it was excessive.

You are correct he was never told he didn't have the box. I was on my way there while he was yelling at us across the court. That is when I talked to my partner preceding the ending of the game.
Thanks, I will defer to your judgement on the throw since you were there. You said there was tape. It would be really helpful if there was a way to share any of the video of what transpired in the last minute of this game.

As officials we often play things back in our heads and think of ways to do things differently and/or better. I commend you on your willingness to put things out there and take feedback.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 12:24pm
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The tape doesn't show a lot due to the fact that the camera is panned to the far right to see almost off of the action.

Also I have never heard from the state on the incident. I sent an email to them to get their opinion of it.

I brought it here for feedback so I am willing to hear all opinions.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 12:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
The tape doesn't show a lot due to the fact that the camera is panned to the far right to see almost off of the action.

Also I have never heard from the state on the incident. I sent an email to them to get their opinion of it.

I brought it here for feedback so I am willing to hear all opinions.
Does the video show the coach holding the ball and throwing it at the official? Would you be willing to let us look at the video?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 01:08pm
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On the video you can only see the official at mid court and the ball come into the screen. You can not see the Coach.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Wed Feb 18, 2015, 02:49pm
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I will say a coach throwing me a basketball is either just a normal pass of the ball and nothing, or a flagrant. It WOULD never just be a T in my book. It's a one or the other IMO.

He either had intent to peg you or he didn't. The second T is irrelevant.
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