Questioning Partner's Call

[Afrosheen]

Yes, AremRed, I see now with your post how this blew up and I flamed the fire. I guess I got too used to talking with the officials I usually work with and thought the same mindset would be seen here.

I apologize to everyone here for misleading you. I appreciate the feedback even though I may not have agreed with all of it. I thought that we could have a civil discussion without making it personal, but that again was my fault for expressing that faith in complete strangers on an internet forum.

No problem Afrosheen. I have fanned the fire on a couple threads that got off the topic I wanted to talk about. I sincerely hope you stick around here and engage in more discussion, it just takes a little while to understand the culture here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Yes, AremRed, I see now with your post how this blew up and I flamed the fire. I guess I got too used to talking with the officials I usually work with and thought the same mindset would be seen here.

I apologize to everyone here for misleading you. I appreciate the feedback even though I may not have agreed with all of it. I thought that we could have a civil discussion without making it personal, but that again was my fault for expressing that faith in complete strangers on an internet forum.

No harm, no foul. I apologize if you think I was being personal.

One thing I've definitely found here --- I learn more posting here than discussing in groups at clinics or between games and the like. Why? Because when you're discussing things in your own circle, people are more likely to just go with the flow, and less likely to say something that might ruffle a feather (perhaps moreso in your case since you have authority over them! How many officials who rely on you to schedule would be willing to say, "Hey boss, you kind of stepped on your partner there"? Likely none of them, even if they ALL thought it.). Here, people will give you the honest truth, an honest opinion of your actions. Take it for what it's worth - there are a lot of very very good, very very smart officials here. And don't assume all criticism is personal.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

You're assuming a little too much with that last sentence. But regardless, I appreciate you're willingness to consider the entirety of my original post.

I agree with you that marginal stuff should not be questioned and that they're supposed to be stuff that should discussed during the half in closed quarters if at all, which is what I do.

But let me ask you, should the referees in Tom Izzo's game not have gone up to their partner on such a missed call? I don't consider that call to be marginal as it a complete kick of the rule.

My assumption is based on experience. Our response as partners can lead to a lot of trouble. If a caoch is already on edge about a call, and you start walking towards the calling official, he's going to assume you saw it his way and try to encourgage you to overturn the call or "talk to" your partner.

I have to say, from what I've read, you seem to have been pretty focussed on the division line when you were at the lead position. I just can't imagine even looking up there on that play unless I didn't trust my partner at all.

I don't recall the play you're talking about with Izzo.

[Camron Rust]

Some officials just have egos so big that even if they kick the call, they'll make something up to cover their butt when they wing it and get it wrong. I've seen it all too many times. Sounds like this guy is one of those. He was more worried about his ego than being a cooperative partner.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Some officials just have egos so big that even if they kick the call, they'll make something up to cover their butt when they wing it and get it wrong. I've seen it all too many times. Sounds like this guy is one of those. He was more worried about his ego than being a cooperative partner.

Yes, and I didn't want to badmouth him on this forum as I wanted to continue to respect him. And I wasn't intending this thread to be about me and my partner but about how the officials here handle similar situations. But I guess that was the unfortunate sacrifice that got lost in everything.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by Adam

My assumption is based on experience. Our response as partners can lead to a lot of trouble. If a caoch is already on edge about a call, and you start walking towards the calling official, he's going to assume you saw it his way and try to encourgage you to overturn the call or "talk to" your partner.

Talking to my partner should not mean that he suddenly loses credibility from it though. He's a human being first and he and me and everyone here will inevitably make mistakes. And I said before, I hope I have a strong enough partner who will be willing to catch my mistakes as I personally do not want a mistake of mine leave an adverse impact on the game.

Originally Posted by Adam

I have to say, from what I've read, you seem to have been pretty focussed on the division line when you were at the lead position. I just can't imagine even looking up there on that play unless I didn't trust my partner at all.

Why are you so concerned with this play anyways? Regardless of what happened, if it's a controversial call that may have been due to a kicked rule, that doubt should be addressed. That is my opinion, though if you have a differing opinion, I'll be willing to hear it, I just won't necessarily agree with it though.

Originally Posted by Adam

I don't recall the play you're talking about with Izzo.

AremRed posted a video of a similar play in the last page where officials were conferring with one another which I said was similar in how the play happened in my game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Talking to my partner should not mean that he suddenly loses credibility from it though. He's a human being first and he and me and everyone here will inevitably make mistakes. And I said before, I hope I have a strong enough partner who will be willing to catch my mistakes as I personally do not want a mistake of mine leave an adverse impact on the game.

Maybe it shouldn't, but it tends to; especially with AAU coaches. Everyone knows we make mistakes, that's not in dispute; nor is it relevant.

I hope to have a strong enough partner that I can focus on my area without worrying about his. Honestly, I would have never even seen the play in your OP. Not from the end line. If I'm at the point where I don't trust him on BC violations from the lead position, I'm probably just trying to prevent a brawl.

And honestly, it's not the "talking" that decreases your partner's credibility. It's your body language that makes it exceedingly clear to the coach that you disagreed with the call.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Why are you so concerned with this play anyways? Regardless of what happened, if it's a controversial call that may have been due to a kicked rule, that doubt should be addressed. That is my opinion, though if you have a differing opinion, I'll be willing to hear it, I just won't necessarily agree with it though.

Because the details of the play matter when it comes to how or whether I would have approached my partner. Like I've said, there are times I have approached a partner to discuss a BC call (once in my very first varsity game), but none of them involved a play that took place entirely in my partner's PCA (this isn't even the lead's secondary area) within such close proximity to the division line.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

AremRed posted a video of a similar play in the last page where officials were conferring with one another which I said was similar in how the play happened in my game.

Ah, I recall the play now. I'll say this; I would never do this. There are a couple of major differences, IMO.

1. The way NCAA officials respond to Izzo is vastly different than the way I would recommend officials respond to AAU coaches.
2. The official who approached his partner seems to have simply asked for an explanation of the call and offered the correct rule.
3. The questioning official has built up a lifetime of situations from which he can draw to know both how to approach his partner and how to deal with the coach afterwards.
4. Don't think the calling official's credibility wasn't damaged by this sequence. Now, whether it was worth the damage is up for debate, and is likely contingent on a number of factors. Personally, I think the ramifications of that damage would be much more significant in an AAU setting than in a college setting where proscribed recourse is already in place to maintain control and bench decorum.
5. That damage is mitigated largely by the fact that he's working this level to begin with. AAU officials don't have that built in cushion.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

I hope to have a strong enough partner that I can focus on my area without worrying about his. Honestly, I would have never even seen the play in your OP. Not from the end line.

...but none of them involved a play that took place entirely in my partner's PCA (this isn't even the lead's secondary area) within such close proximity to the division line.

Perhaps I've made a bad assumption on this play but I was commenting on this play assuming the throwin was administered by the OP from one of his lines and it was 100% his responsibility to watch the ball on the throwin so he could chop in the time. That would mean that he would have to be looking right at the play.

If that is not the case, then I do agree he really shouldn't be looking that far out of his primary and, if he was really doing his job, he would have never seen the play to even have an opinion on the play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Perhaps I've made a bad assumption on this play but I was commenting on this play assuming the throwin was administered by the OP from one of his lines and it was 100% his responsibility to watch the ball on the throwin so he could chop in the time. ....

I able to do that without looking to see where the receivers feet are, and without staring directly at him.