Rule question

[ODog]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Curious as to the specifics of the "myth" as taught in your class.

As you know all too well from the jackals in the stands, it seems a large number of people think a three-second violation is for standing in the lane for 3 seconds, without regard to the location of the ball or who has control of it.

And even when you finally explain it to "that coach" who just decides to yell "three seconds" indiscriminately, you tend to get the "OK, I didn't realilze that. Thank you."

And now we know even working officials who have passed a test also subscribe to the myth.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Maybe because they are more polite than you? What would "calling BS" on my questions look like? Am I not allowed to ask simple, basic questions? (sarcasm here, also rhetorical)

APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

Then you make the call and a coach yells at you for it. Did it not occur to you that you MIGHT be wrong? Sure as hell would have occurred to me - and I'd be digging in the rule book that night - likely, if possible, in the locker room before driving off. I would bet that my first year (for each sport), I was in the rulebook before driving off at least 3/4 of the time. Possibly to confirm I was right about something, and sometimes learning I was wrong. The coach jumping on you for not knowing a rule in your first year should ALWAYS trigger this.

We try to welcome new officials here. Sometimes we do a crappy job of it, but based on this thread alone, I'd say you got a better welcome than many. We all remember being new. But we also remember checking the BOOK first - then possibly coming here and stating a situation, saying what we found in the book, and then asking if we were interpreting the book right.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

As the trail, does it matter which arm I use for the 10-second count? I typically use the inside arm, but I watched a few varsity games on tv this week and all the officials used the outside arm.

Since we're all 'fessing up and getting along, I'll admit now, after this post, I almost asked: Is this guy putting us on?

Instead I'll just say that I'm certain really soon sean will realize how elementary a couple of his questions were.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

APG already responded to him. Your retort was unnecessary. He might have been over the top, but he has a point. I can't imagine an official getting on the court (especially having passed the test - even open book) that doesn't understand the 3-second rule. But say it happened. You, not understanding this rule, somehow pass the test without reading this rule, and end up on the court.

When I first started, the test to get my license required 80 correct answers out of 100. So I could be dead wrong about 20% of the game and still get licensed. It's easy to see how 3 seconds could be part of the 20% you didn't know.

I haven't had to take a basketball rules exam to maintain my license since 2000.

I do take a soccer exam every year, but there the passing score is just 75%.

[just another ref]

Here, passing is only 70% and the questions are true/false. This means, theoretically, you would get 50% right if you don't even read the questions.
You really don't have to know much to pass the test.

On the other hand, there are questions on the test that never come up anywhere else.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

For most rookies, they get a lot of stuff wrong even after they've heard it....it is overload. You can find a lot of stuff in the book as you need while taking the test but that doesn't mean they're remember it all on demand.

Exactly right. There are so many rules and cases for a first-year guy to consider, it is very overwhelming at times.

Originally Posted by ODog

I just find it scary and borderline reckless that someone who actually has a rules book, passed a test and is doing games isn't familiar with the 3-second rule -- at all.

You are absolutely correct, it is my job and responsibility to know the 3-second rule. I blew that call.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If you did, you'd be wrong.

I know, someone already answered that for me.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Did it not occur to you that you MIGHT be wrong? Sure as hell would have occurred to me - and I'd be digging in the rule book that night - likely, if possible, in the locker room before driving off.

Yes, I did check the book right away. I had a 7-5-7a situation happen recently where my partner insisted that passing out of bounds was a violation. I did not know the rule, checked at halftime, and apologized to the coach when I came out at halftime. The coach could do nothing but shake my hand and the game went on. As a first-year guy I do recognize knowing the rulebook is one of the priorities and I am working on it. However, I have found some of the intricacies of the rules to be difficult to understand.

Here is my reasoning for counting 3-seconds during an inbound. Rule 9-7-1: "A player shall not remain for three seconds....while the ball is in control of his/her team in his/her frontcourt". I combined that rule with 4-12-2d, while not realizing that the out-of-bounds area surrounding the frontcourt is not also considered frontcourt. From an advantage/disadvantage viewpoint it is easy to consider that, during a frontcourt endline throw-in, a player might box out his defender while directly under the basket, gaining what I think is an unfair advantage.

Originally Posted by Eastshire

So I could be dead wrong about 20% of the game and still get licensed. It's easy to see how 3 seconds could be part of the 20% you didn't know.

In this thread, I have only asked about plays that 1) I was unsure about after the game ended, and 2) that I looked up in the rule/casebook but was confused by the wordings. I asked about the 3-second call I made, I was wrong. I asked about the over-and-back call I made, I was right. Simple questions perhaps, but mark my words: I will not make the same mistake twice. That's my takeaway from this thread, and why I come here to learn from you guys.

[MD Longhorn]

Fair enough.

Back to the understanding that OOB is not frontcourt, Sean... if you had a throw-in under the basket, and he threw it all the way over the entire frontcourt to land (or be caught) in the backcourt ... would you have a violation? (Assume you're not an NBA ref for the purposes of this conversation).

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Fair enough.

Back to the understanding that OOB is not frontcourt, Sean... if you had a throw-in under the basket, and he threw it all the way over the entire frontcourt to land (or be caught) in the backcourt ... would you have a violation? (Assume you're not an NBA ref for the purposes of this conversation).

No, I would not. OOB is neither in the frontcourt, nor the backcourt, and possession can be gained in either court with no violation.

Sean

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

In this thread, I have only asked about plays that 1) I was unsure about after the game ended, and 2) that I looked up in the rule/casebook but was confused by the wordings. I asked about the 3-second call I made, I was wrong. I asked about the over-and-back call I made, I was right. Simple questions perhaps, but mark my words: I will not make the same mistake twice. That's my takeaway from this thread, and why I come here to learn from you guys.

And now you'll never make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that's one of the best ways that we learn... make an incorrect call, look it up afterwards, and realize that you screwed up.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

And now you'll never make that mistake again. Unfortunately, that's one of the best ways that we learn... make an incorrect call, look it up afterwards, and realize that you screwed up.

Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

No, I would not. OOB is neither in the frontcourt, nor the backcourt, and possession can be gained in either court with no violation.

Sean

Exactly - same logic applies to 3 seconds. (I guess I should have asked if you would have ruled this way BEFORE learning today that OOB was not in the frontcourt)

[OKREF]

Seems he might be trying to apply the "team control" during a throw in to this situation, when it really only applies to a foul by the offense on a throw in. I think that is what is confusing him.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by OKREF

Seems he might be trying to apply the "team control" during a throw in to this situation, when it really only applies to a foul by the offense on a throw in. I think that is what is confusing him.

That, and he was incorrectly thinking that you could have FC status during a throw-in.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That, and he was incorrectly thinking that you could have FC status during a throw-in.

... that, and he was incorrectly thinking the 3-second count is not terminated on shot attempts.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ODog

Because classes make it significantly less likely you'll have a "certified" official calling 3 seconds on inbounds plays and during shot and rebound attempts. Just offering the exam without any contextual rules/floor training is irresponsible and unfair to local teams who use that pool of officials.

Three seconds is also probably the top myth debunked in a new officials class, the kind of "light bulb" information that makes you say to yourself, "Whoa. That's one to file away."

FYI, I teach those classes in my area.

You have to consider that you get a wide variety of people that want to be officials....from someone who barely knows the basketball is round to those that have been paid to play professionally. It is simply unrealistic to expect that all of them will know all of the rules and mechanics after even 1-2 years of classes. It is just not going to happen in the real world. That is why they're on the freshman games (or middle school in some areas). They're there to make mistakes....of all types. That is how they ultimately learn. For that matter, I've corrected accomplished 20-year vets on rules issues on more than one occasion..

If you made people be experts in the rules before giving them their first game, we'd never get new people to last long enough to work their first game and we'd be extremely shorthanded.