FT violation?

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Because it's the trial's primary coverage area on a free throw?

If I were the lead, I would wait a few seconds, enough time for the trail to sound his whistle, if he didn't, then I would sound mine. I know that it's not my primary, but I'm not letting an obvious violation like this pass.

Next time... this.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Did not knowing this make you commit to studying the case book on a daily basis?

The reason many of us are condescending is that when a situation happens that only happens once in a great while, a lot of officials blow it off and say, "well, that doesn't happen often." They say, "It is a measly little case play." That's a terrible attitude. You didn't know the rule and yet you're still blowing it off.

Even the worst on-court officials can be great with the rules. And if you're a good on-court official, it doesn't cost you anything extra to be great with the rules.

[Lotto]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

9.1.1 SITUATION: A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw: (a) muffs
the pass from the official and it rolls forward; or (b) while performing his/her
habitual dribbles prior to the release, accidentally allows the ball to deflect off
his/her foot into the lane. RULING: In (a), the official should sound the whistle to
prevent any violations and then start the free throw procedure again. No freethrow
violation should be called in this situation. In (b), a free-throw violation
shall be called on A1. (9-1-3a, e)

That's interesting -- the NCAA case is completely different:

A.R. 206. A1, at the free-throw line to attempt a free throw, receives the ball from the official, who starts a silent count. While bouncing the ball, A1 strikes the ball on his/her knee or leg accidentally, and the ball rolls toward the basket between the free-throw lane lines.
RULING: The official shall sound the whistle at once, causing the ball to become dead. The official should caution the free-thrower, place the ball at the disposal of A1 and start a new silent count.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Rich

Did not knowing this make you commit to studying the case book on a daily basis?

The reason many of us are condescending is that when a situation happens that only happens once in a great while, a lot of officials blow it off and say, "well, that doesn't happen often." They say, "It is a measly little case play." That's a terrible attitude. You didn't know the rule and yet you're still blowing it off.

Even the worst on-court officials can be great with the rules. And if you're a good on-court official, it doesn't cost you anything extra to be great with the rules.

I am in the rule book and case book everyday, even before this happened. Just because I read it once or twice doesn't mean it is solidified in the memory banks nor does it mean that I would know the proper procedure for calling a violation or foul, just becuase I read about it. Like I said, I now know the rule, why, the penalty and how to administer it in the future, including whistling outside my PCA and taking the call from a senior official who doesn't know what they are doing either. I wasn't blowing it off, I just hadn't had to put it into practice so I was unsure of myself. In basketball there is book smarts and there are street smarts and you have to have both. I am getting to be pretty book smart, but still have a long way to go with the street smarts.

My point to you and icallfouls is please keep the condescention to yourselves. Isn't this forum's purpose to discuss rules, situations, and anything else basketball for the betterment of the collective group as a whole? Saying "you and are your partner are terrible officials" doesn't help anyone, and it may actually drive people from the forum so they don't continue to improve, this does not benifit our avocation, reputation or help create better officials for the future. What would be benificial is to offer up advice for how to improve and continue to share and pay forward the knowledge that many of you experts on this forum have. We younger officials glean a ton of knowledge and wisdom from those of you that have been doing this for decades, and we appreciate it.

Do you truly think that I just blew it off as "oh it is just a rare play, It doesn't really matter if I missed it." ? If you think this you are wrong. If I was blowing it off, I wouldn't have taken the time to figure out the proper call, and not only that, know I have shared my experience with potentially hundreds of other officials so hopefully, someone else can benefit from my error and prevent them from making the same mistake. I did not "blow it off."

And I would never watch one of your games and say "Oh that is a terrible official" just because you made a mistake. We all make them. No one is perfect. It is and was a learning moment for me and for each of us every time we or a partner makes a mistake. I would tactfully point out the situation to you and ask your opinion on why you did what you did and what you would do in the future.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Just look at it this way. You came here for information, which is plentiful. Just like anyplace else, people have different ways of communicating. It is up to you to sort through the information and hang onto what you consider useful. The delivery of the information? You may like it, and you may not, but the nastiest guy here will probably speak to you more nicely than your average coach.

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.

Now for my opinion: Giving an explanation of a violation to a coach is not something to spend a lot of time worrying about. He saw what happened. He heard the whistle. It's kinda self explanatory. At worst, you say "She dribbled it off her foot, that's a violation." How certain of any rule do you have to be before you will actually blow the whistle? Only you can decide.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Just look at it this way. You came here for information, which is plentiful. Just like anyplace else, people have different ways of communicating. It is up to you to sort through the information and hang onto what you consider useful. The delivery of the information? You may like it, and you may not, but the nastiest guy here will probably speak to you more nicely than your average coach.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by just another ref

You knew the job was dangerous when you took it.
Now for my opinion: Giving an explanation of a violation to a coach is not something to spend a lot of time worrying about. He saw what happened. He heard the whistle. It's kinda self explanatory. At worst, you say "She dribbled it off her foot, that's a violation." How certain of any rule do you have to be before you will actually blow the whistle? Only you can decide.

Great point. I guess I needed to be more assertive and confident in my own ability and understanding of the rules and go get that one, regardless of how "senior" my partner may be.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

Ouch, a little harsh don't you think? I am only a third year official. I thought it was a violation and asked my more seasoned varsity partner quickly who said no. I couldn't quote the rule thus would be unable to properly explain to a coach why I called it. To me, "It just is..." is a piss poor excuse to give to coaches. It is a measly little case play and nothing in the rules says anything about this being a violation. Now I know. And I know what you mean about working with officials that don't know the rules, although it is more frustrating when they call traveling on a loose ball slide or 3 seconds while ball is in the backcourt. Those are everyday plays that we should be getting right. I have never seen anyone lose control of the ball on a FT, ever... This is a rare play.
Thanks for the condescention.

Wasn't trying to be harsh or condescending, but now here you go.

I really don't think that "being a 3rd year official" is an excuse for not knowing the rules. That particular situation has been in the manuals previously (try your online casebook if you don't, have your manuals with you, it can be found 9.1.1 Situation. It is apparent that more officials need to spend more time on the rules. Do yourself, your partners, and the game a favor, learn the rules.

We aren't getting paid to gradually learn the rules, or learn them as we go. Your said that you are "only a third year official" which is a "piss poor excuse." I have worked college games with 3rd year officials that have saved the crew because they took the time to learn and know the rules while they were working to improve other aspects of their game.

If you have not seen this play ever, work more youth games, it happens. That is why it is in the book, that you have yet to read. Did you even look it up after your game? Do you take your rule books with you to games?

We need our partners to know the rules. Be the partner the crew has confidence in, not the partner we can't go to because rules knowledge is weak.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

...
If you have not seen this play ever, work more youth games, it happens. That is why it is in the book, that you have yet to read. Did you even look it up after your game? Do you take your rule books with you to games?
....

Ahh, you've hit on my pet peeve. It's one thing to not know a rule during a game or halftime discussion. We've all had that happen to us. But I don't understand how a serious official would not then FIRST go to the rule and case books himself before coming to this site to ask other officials what the rule is.

[maven]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

But I don't understand how a serious official would not then FIRST go to the rule and case books himself before coming to this site to ask other officials what the rule is.

Really? It's so much easier to ask you than to pore through the dang books!

[icallfouls]

see below

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

I am in the rule book and case book everyday, Every day? Then it would seem that you should be more familiar. Or were you using it for a pillow? even before this happened. Just because I read it once or twice doesn't mean it is solidified in the memory banks nor does it mean that I would know the proper procedure for calling a violation or foul, just becuase I read about it. Like I said, I now know the rule, why, the penalty and how to administer it in the future, including whistling outside my PCA and taking the call from a senior official who doesn't know what they are doing either. Then how senior were they really? Maybe just older. I wasn't blowing it off, I just hadn't had to put it into practice so I was unsure of myself. In basketball there is book smarts and there are street smarts and you have to have both. I am getting to be pretty book smart, but still have a long way to go with the street smarts.

My point to you and icallfouls is please keep the condescention to yourselves. Isn't this forum's purpose to discuss rules, situations, and anything else basketball for the betterment of the collective group as a whole? Saying "you and are your partner are terrible officials" no one said terrible, you did.doesn't help anyone, and it may actually drive people from the forum if your feelings are hurt, maybe officiating isn't for you. so they don't continue to improve, this does not benifit our avocation, reputation or help create better officials for the future. What would be benificial is to offer up advice myself and others said the best advice - get into the rulebooks - it is advice, sorry you don't see it that way. for how to improve and continue to share and pay forward the knowledge that many of you experts on this forum have. We younger officials glean a ton of knowledge and wisdom from those of you that have been doing this for decades, and we appreciate it.

Do you truly think that I just blew it off as "oh it is just a rare play, It doesn't really matter if I missed it." ? If you think this you are wrong. If I was blowing it off, I wouldn't have taken the time to figure out no you didn't, you could have learned it by READING YOUR RULEBOOK the proper call, and not only that, know I have shared my experience with potentially hundreds of other officials so hopefully, someone else can benefit from my error and prevent them from making the same mistake. I did not "blow it off."

And I would never watch one of your games and say "Oh that is a terrible official" just because you made a mistakenot knowing the rules is not a mistake, a mistake is pointing the wrong direction on an OOB play.. We all make them. No one is perfect. It is and was a learning moment for me and for each of us every time we or a partner makes a mistake. I would tactfully point out the situation to you and ask your opinion on why you did what you did and what you would do in the future.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by maven

Really? It's so much easier to ask you than to pore through the dang books!

Your tag line says it best "quality is a habit."

Then next part is developing good habits and eliminating bad habits. The good habit should be to look it up after the game and relay that information to the partner. Finding where the information is located is a good habit, rather than to rely on the work and word of others.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind helping newer officials, but they have to help themselves first.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Your tag line says it best "quality is a habit."

Then next part is developing good habits and eliminating bad habits. The good habit should be to look it up after the game and relay that information to the partner. Finding where the information is located is a good habit, rather than to rely on the work and word of others.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind helping newer officials, but they have to help themselves first.

"You'll learn it better if you look it up yourself and you'll likely find something else you didn't know."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by maven

It's so much easier to ask you than to pore through the dang books!

And this is the twenty-first century. In my opinion, this Forum is as much of a research tool as a paper, and ink, rulebook, and casebook. We have many tools in our "officials tool belt", rulebook, casebook, mechanics manual, digital versions of the three previously mentioned tools, DVD's of plays, colleagues on our local board, interpreters on our local boards, camps, local board websites, and the Forum. The Forum just happens to be one of those tools, one that wasn't available to us twenty years ago. It's better to "get straight" on the rules here on Al Gore's internet, then to not ever "get straight" on the rules. I know that other Forum members disagree with me, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"You'll learn it better if you look it up yourself and you'll likely find something else you didn't know."

Well said, Thanks Bob!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... It's better to "get straight" on the rules here on Al Gore's internet, then to not ever "get straight" on the rules. I know that other Forum members disagree with me, but that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

It's better to look the rule up yourself and THEN come here and say "I read 9.1.1 but I'm still not sure if it applies to my situation".

If you come here without looking it up yourself your first 2 replies might be from "Old School" and you're no better off then when you started.