Goaltending on Backboard Slap

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think there are 2 different scenarios we could clarify.

1. Partner calls goaltending on the basis of a backboard slap. As a result of not knowing the rule.

2. Partner calls goaltending thinking the defender deflects the ball on the way down.

When we have the play as stated by the OP, our radars should go up as a crew and I think either way a quick conversation with the calling official is appropriate since this call is at a critical juncture of the game. In 1, IMO, we get the play right and either choose to penalize with a Technical foul or a play on - We cannot have goaltending on this play.

In 2, there is nothing we can do. If your partner sees something that just isn't there we have to live with it and hope to all learn from the situation and get the play right next time.

This is a great discussion and certainly my approach may not be appropriate for certain groups or areas, but I wholeheartedly believe in doing what is right for the game. In situation 1, this is to get the play and administration correct.

If it's obvious to Ray Charles that the player didn't hit the ball, a quick convo might be in order. If I even have an inkling that he thought the ball was hit, I'm not delaying the game. I'll ask later, but not now.

The point is, I have no idea what he's thinking when he calls it, and unless I've had other reasons to doubt his rules knowledge, I'm going to assume he saw something I didn't.

He could make a call because the kid has red hair, and I wouldn't know. He's not telling me his justification (most likely).

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it's obvious to Ray Charles that the player didn't hit the ball, a quick convo might be in order. If I even have an inkling that he thought the ball was hit, I'm not delaying the game. I'll ask later, but not now.

The point is, I have no idea what he's thinking when he calls it, and unless I've had other reasons to doubt his rules knowledge, I'm going to assume he saw something I didn't.

He could make a call because the kid has red hair, and I wouldn't know. He's not telling me his justification (most likely).

So let's pose a scenario.

The team who the goaltending and subsequent Technical foul is assessed against loses a close ballgame and the game is huge for playoff implications.

In the locker room after the game, you ask your partner about the call and he says "The defender hit the backboard causing the ball to pop out of the ring. The coach was wrong, that was a goaltending violation."

Now your supervisor is on the phone wanting to know what you did as crew chief to ensure the play was handled correctly. What do you say?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If it's obvious to Ray Charles that the player didn't hit the ball, a quick convo might be in order. If I even have an inkling that he thought the ball was hit, I'm not delaying the game. I'll ask later, but not now.

In the OP, "you" clearly saw that the ball wasn't touched. So, I'm (probably) going in to ask. If he then says the ball was touched on the way down, we'll live with that.

It's much the same as providing extra information on an OOB call, IMO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

So let's pose a scenario.

The team who the goaltending and subsequent Technical foul is assessed against loses a close ballgame and the game is huge for playoff implications.

In the locker room after the game, you ask your partner about the call and he says "The defender hit the backboard causing the ball to pop out of the ring. The coach was wrong, that was a goaltending violation."

Now your supervisor is on the phone wanting to know what you did as crew chief to ensure the play was handled correctly. What do you say?

The same thing I would have done to ensure his backcourt call was correct. If it's obvious that the ball wasn't touched, I'll initiate a conversation. If it's not, I'll assume he saw hand on ball when he made the call.

If my assigner wants to press, I'll ask him if he can tell me which calls I should be challenging my partners on to make sure they understand the rules. If I'm feeling particularly snippy, I'll tell him I assumed the partner he assigned me knew the rules.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the OP, "you" clearly saw that the ball wasn't touched. So, I'm (probably) going in to ask. If he then says the ball was touched on the way down, we'll live with that.

It's much the same as providing extra information on an OOB call, IMO.

I don't know, he said "barely." I'm not sure that's "clearly" enough for me.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The same thing I would have done to ensure his backcourt call was correct. If it's obvious that the ball wasn't touched, I'll initiate a conversation. If it's not, I'll assume he saw hand on ball when he made the call.

If my assigner wants to press, I'll ask him if he can tell me which calls I should be challenging my partners on to make sure they understand the rules. If I'm feeling particularly snippy, I'll tell him I assumed the partner he assigned me knew the rules.

I think you are missing the entire point myself and many others are trying to get across, but that is fine... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

IMO - this deserves at minimum a conversation. I have seen guys lose games and in some cases careers derailed based on incorrect rules applications. And it almost always affects the entire crew. Do you want your partner's poor decision to impact your schedule, playoff assignments, etc?

But the bottom line is, our #1 job every night is to do what is right for the game - to get our plays right. This didn't happen in this case, and so hopefully the crew can learn from it and get the play right next time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think you are missing the entire point myself and many others are trying to get across, but that is fine... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

IMO - this deserves at minimum a conversation. I have seen guys lose games and in some cases careers derailed based on incorrect rules applications. And it almost always affects the entire crew. Do you want your partner's poor decision to impact your schedule, playoff assignments, etc?

But the bottom line is, our #1 job every night is to do what is right for the game - to get our plays right. This didn't happen in this case, and so hopefully the crew can learn from it and get the play right next time.

I'm not missing anything that's being said. Things like "I'm not letting a rule get misapplied in my game" are what I'm responding to. Frankly, you can't possibly stop it unless you question every call your partner makes.

A trails by 3 with 3 seconds left. 3 man crew, you're T for a FC throw-in on the endline near the 3 pt line. A1, after throwing the pass, receives a return pass just as his foot hits the floor IB (barely). L calls OOB. A coach goes ballistic and gets a T, B makes the FTs and the game ends.

In the locker room, the L starts talking about how the coach doesn't obviously doesn't know the rule that says a player must establish two feet in bounds after he's been OOB. What do you tell your assigner when he asks you what you did as the R to make sure the play was handled correctly?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Tio

I think you are missing the entire point myself and many others are trying to get across, but that is fine... everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

IMO - this deserves at minimum a conversation. I have seen guys lose games and in some cases careers derailed based on incorrect rules applications. And it almost always affects the entire crew. Do you want your partner's poor decision to impact your schedule, playoff assignments, etc?

But the bottom line is, our #1 job every night is to do what is right for the game - to get our plays right. This didn't happen in this case, and so hopefully the crew can learn from it and get the play right next time.

Just my opinion here, but my knee-jerk reaction at this point in my career and for the games I work is that 1) conversations on calls like this - where partners do not have definite info on, for example, the defender not touching the ball - undermine the credibility and believability of the crew for the rest of the game, and 2) this type of "learning from it" needs to happen in the locker room at half time or post game, because my partners and I should know these pretty basic rules. At lower-level games, I suppose on-court discussion-stuff could be situationally appropriate, though - so I guess it could be relative to the situation.

[Tio]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not missing anything that's being said. Things like "I'm not letting a rule get misapplied in my game" are what I'm responding to. Frankly, you can't possibly stop it unless you question every call your partner makes.

A trails by 3 with 3 seconds left. 3 man crew, you're T for a FC throw-in on the endline near the 3 pt line. A1, after throwing the pass, receives a return pass just as his foot hits the floor IB (barely). L calls OOB. A coach goes ballistic and gets a T, B makes the FTs and the game ends.

In the locker room, the L starts talking about how the coach doesn't obviously doesn't know the rule that says a player must establish two feet in bounds after he's been OOB. What do you tell your assigner when he asks you what you did as the R to make sure the play was handled correctly?

You have a fair point...although, I don't think the situation in the OP and the scenario you have drawn up are the same.

We have blurred the lines between changing the call and asssessing the correct penalty for the infraction. The key topic from the OP is that latter.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Tio

You have a fair point...although, I don't think the situation in the OP and the scenario you have drawn up are the same.

We have blurred the lines between changing the call and asssessing the correct penalty for the infraction. The key topic from the OP is that latter.

Both involve a legal play that was ruled a violation due to a misapplication of the rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by AllPurposeGamer

If a player makes a legit attempt at blocking the ball and hits the backboard, you can cause the basket to shake till kingdom come and it's still legal under NFHS rules.

Not true about twenty-five years ago. I believe that the rule, back then, stated that if the backboard shook to a certain degree, that an official could charge a technical foul. There are still still some old coaches coaching, and some old officials officiating.

[APG]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not true about twenty-five years ago. I believe that the rule, back then, stated that if the backboard shook to a certain degree, that an official could charge a technical foul. There are still still some old coaches coaching, and some old officials officiating.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing that...seeing as I wasn't even alive yet.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not true about twenty-five years ago. I believe that the rule, back then, stated that if the backboard shook to a certain degree, that an official could charge a technical foul. There are still still some old coaches coaching, and some old officials officiating.

How did they measure the "certain degree?" Thermometer?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

How did they measure the "certain degree?"

Heh? It was more than twenty-five years ago? You expect me to remember the exact wording? I'm lucky if I can remember what I had for breakfast this morning.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Whippersnapper

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing that...seeing as I wasn't even alive yet.

I have socks older than you.