Pass that goes in.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

3. No different than the case play.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.



2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

Then how do they support the understanding that try is somehow different? 4.41.4B has no rule justification; it's still a thrown ball. But we're supposed to give the offense 3 points if it's a pass but 2 if it's a try?

[Adam]

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

Reach for the sky.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

Decide what to call it while explaining Coach B that it does count because it was not a kicked ball.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

. But we're supposed to give the offense 3 points if it's a pass but 2 if it's a try?

Two entirely different situations.

The 3 point try is attempted. Team control has ended. The try is missed. It's now a rebound as the try has ENDED.

A pass is made from behind the 3 point line. Team control still exists. The ball hits B1 and goes in the basket. Yes, by rule and case play, that is a 3.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

New sitch:
A1, standing in the three point area at the wing, attempts a bounce pass to A2 at the top of the key. Just as he releases the pass, B2 comes running down the court between A1 and A2 (he was late) and the ball hits his knee before hitting the floor, and flies into the hoop.

Here, we call that a kicked ball.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

It used to a long time ago. If we thought it was a pass, rather than a shot, from behind the three point line, and the ball went in the hoop, then only two points were scored. We were really good mind readers back then.

[Scratch85]

I've been trying to reconcile these two case plays all night. Here is my latest version.

5.2.1C

A ball that is thrown into a teams own goal from behind the three-point arc scores three points. So a ball that is thrown by A1 into A1's goal from behind the three point-arc scores three points regardless of being legally touched by a B player inside or outside A's three-point arc. It is the result of an action started by A1 and ending by going through A's basket.



4.41.4B

Since the try has ended and team control does not exist, any touch by B1 would now be considered a tap, try, throw or action started by B1. By rule, a three-point goal can only be scored at a teams own goal. So B1 can't score a three-point goal at A's basket. As opposed to 5.2.1C where the action is clearly a thrown ball (still in TC) by A1.


5.2.1D

This case play has a throw-in by team A being touched at the FT line and then goes directly through A's basket. Again no team control so any touch by B, whether inside or outside A's three-point arc would result in two points. The throw in ends and B cannot score a three-point goal in A's basket. My thoughts are that if A1 deflected the throw-in and was outside the three-point arc, it would score three points for A.

I am having a hard time putting my thoughts into words on this one. I hope I have described it coherently.

And I can't place trajectory as having anything to do with it.

[gslefeb]

Play 1.
A1 passes to A2 – from top of key to wing area, outside 3pt line.

Play 2
A1 throws ball to the basket from outside the 3pt line, ball is short of Rim and falls below Rim

In Play 2, if B3 hits the ball after it is below the Rim, we have a case play that says it is only worth two points as the try has ended.

In both plays the thrown balls do not have a chance to go in, therefore they are not considered a try (or the try has ended).

How does play 1 differ from play 2?

In play 1 if B3 hits the ball below the rim and it goes into the basket, why would you award 3pts?

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

Play 1.
A1 passes to A2 – from top of key to wing area, outside 3pt line.

In play 1 if B3 hits the ball below the rim and it goes into the basket, why would you award 3pts?

Because A1 started an action (throwing the ball from outside the 3-point arc) that ended with the live ball (still in team A's control) going through A's basket.

[gslefeb]

So how is that different then the case play (play 2)? That was a live ball that started from outside the 3pt line and went into the basket. We award 2pts for this play.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

Play 1.
A1 passes to A2 – from top of key to wing area, outside 3pt line.

Play 2
A1 throws ball to the basket from outside the 3pt line, ball is short of Rim and falls below Rim

In Play 2, if B3 hits the ball after it is below the Rim, we have a case play that says it is only worth two points as the try has ended.

In both plays the thrown balls do not have a chance to go in, therefore they are not considered a try (or the try has ended).

How does play 1 differ from play 2?

Play 1 is the result of A's throwing action. Play 2 is the result of B3's action.

No team control during a shot. The shot is given the opportunity to end. When it ends, the ball has no "ownership" (can't think of a better word) and the next action started is the touch by B3.

B3 cannot score a three-point goal in A's basket. No matter B3's location. If B3 got the rebound, ran out beyond A's 3-point arc and threw the ball into A's basket, it would still be 2 points. The two actions by B3 described here are treated the same by rule.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

Play 2
A1 throws ball to the basket from outside the 3pt line, ball is short of Rim and falls below Rim

What you have stated is defined as a try in the rule book.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

What you have stated is defined as a try in the rule book.

Disagree. The definition of a try specifies intent: A try.....is an attempt....to score........

The thrown ball could obviously be a pass attempt.