Pass that goes in.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I know we've had this discussion here before, and I'm not convinced this rule is meant to apply to all cases.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

This is why I love this forum.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

As I understand the rule, Yes. But I hope it never comes up and I don't have to.

Wasn't it just a few years ago that an interp was around that it required a try to count as three? Of course that would have been before the more recent case play.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

Reading the rule, I don't know how you could award anything else.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

3. No different than the case play.

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

If it is deemed to be a try, then it is 3 points. If it is definitely not a try, then it is 2 points. My play had a pass parallel to the floor into the post that got deflected, changed direction dramatically and went into the basket. The OP sounds similar to my play. My interpreter and my former interpreter both indicated that 2 points was correct in this case. One is Fed & the other is IAABO.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

26 year gap did.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

2. The try ended when it was apparent it wouldn't score.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

2. The try ended when it was apparent it wouldn't score.



2. When the ball touched A2's hands, it's no longer possible for a 3 to be scored.

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

On the 2nd one, it never hits A2's hands.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by bainsey

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

not true

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?

The only way to reconcile the two cases is to accept that it is based not on the intent of the original throw but on the trajectory of the ball as it leaves the original thrower's hands. If it leaves the thrower's hand on a path towards the basket, count it for 3 if it goes in. Once it is not heading towards the basket, it can no longer be a 3.

[Jurassic Referee]

What Camron said.

If it's got a chance to go in, treat it as a try. If it doesn't have a chance to go in or if the try has ended under NFHS R4-41-4, treat it as a loose ball. Rule accordingly in both cases.

And quit thinking so damn much.....

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

On the 2nd one, it never hits A2's hands.

If it's a try, the try is over when it's apparent it won't score. So it's NOT a try. It's just a B player that knocked the ball into A's basket.

And yes, I missed that it didn't hit the hands and changed that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

3. No different than the case play.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.



2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can't see the logic in this, TH. You're giving conflicting statements above imo. As in highlighted in red #2 above, the ball has fallen below the basket in both cases where you say they should be 3's. In both of those cases the ball did not have a chance to go in either before the touching below the ring. That's why they both should be ruled 2's.

Disagree.

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Here's Snaq's play.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

There is no logic and no difference in the case play. And according to the case play, it's a 3.

5.2.1 SITUATION C: A1 throws the ball from behind the three-point line. The ball is legally touched by: (a) B1 who is in the three-point area; (b) B1 who is in the two-point area; (c) A2 who is in the three-point area; or (d) A2 who is in the two-point area. The ball continues in flight and goes through A's basket. RULING: In (a) and (b), three points are scored since the legal touching was by the defense and the ball was thrown from behind the three-point line. In (c), score three points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred behind the three-point line. In (d), score two points since the legal touch by a teammate occurred in the two-point area.

While it's nice to think trajectory has something to do with it, the rule and case play don't support it.

Then how do they support the understanding that try is somehow different? 4.41.4B has no rule justification; it's still a thrown ball. But we're supposed to give the offense 3 points if it's a pass but 2 if it's a try?