Pass that goes in.

[Adam]

I know we've had this discussion here before, and I'm not convinced this rule is meant to apply to all cases.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

Arms up, Snaq. That's a three.

Had the ball hit a teammate or official in the paint (despite really bad positioning by stripes), then it would be a two. (See 5.2.1 C)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bainsey

Arms up, Snaq. That's a three.

Had the ball hit a teammate or official in the paint (despite really bad positioning by stripes), then it would be a two. (See 5.2.1 C)

We've been round and round on this before and there is a difference of opinion.

Many (perhaps most) feel the "thrown ball" rule is written with the assumption that the ball is thrown toward the area of the basket....and that a deflection that redirects the ball to the basket is no longer a "thrown ball"....particularly a deflection on a ball that is not going above the rim or is on its way down. The purpose of this rule is NOT to turn a wild deflection into 3 points but to take the judgement out of the case where a ball, as released, may or may not have been a try but goes directly into the basket....and that a brush (not a redirection) by a defender doesn't change the status of the thrown ball.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We've been round and round on this before and there is a difference of opinion.

Many (perhaps most) feel the "thrown ball" rule is written with the assumption that the ball is thrown toward the area of the basket....and that a deflection that redirects the ball to the basket is no longer a "thrown ball"....particularly a deflection on a ball that is not going above the rim or is on its way down. The purpose of this rule is NOT to turn a wild deflection into 3 points but to take the judgement out of the case where a ball, as released, may or may not have been a try but goes directly into the basket....and that a brush (not a redirection) by a defender doesn't change the status of the thrown ball.

Well said, Camron, thanks.

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by mbyron

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

We've been round and round on this before and there is a difference of opinion.

Many (perhaps most) feel the "thrown ball" rule is written with the assumption that the ball is thrown toward the area of the basket....and that a deflection that redirects the ball to the basket is no longer a "thrown ball"....particularly a deflection on a ball that is not going above the rim or is on its way down. The purpose of this rule is NOT to turn a wild deflection into 3 points but to take the judgement out of the case where a ball, as released, may or may not have been a try but goes directly into the basket....and that a brush (not a redirection) by a defender doesn't change the status of the thrown ball.

That is a lot to read in to rule 5-2-1.

I agree the rule was written to take the judgement out. Taking the position above is adding a lot of judgement back in.

IMO, 5-2-1 and 5.2.1C(b) in the case book gives us only one choice. Count it as 3.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scratch85

That is a lot to read in to rule 5-2-1.

I agree the rule was written to take the judgement out. Taking the position above is adding a lot of judgement back in.

IMO, 5-2-1 and 5.2.1C(b) in the case book gives us only one choice. Count it as 3.

If you go back to when it was changed and the reason it was changed, it is not so hard to come to that conclusion.

There is another case play (someone else can look it up) that has a thrown ball (try) that bounces off a defender's head and into the basket. The ball was thrown from behind the 3-point arc. The ruling in that case play is that it counts for 2 points. Why? At the point in time where the "try" is over (certain it will not be successful, below the rim, hits the floor, etc.) the thrown ball can no longer score for 3 points....any subsequent deflection is a NEW action. So, a thrown ball that can not possibly go in as released is not subject to being 3-points.

The judgement removed is in the intent of the thrower, not whether the "try" has ended or not. The former requires the reading of a mind. The latter only requires the observation of physical facts.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If you go back to when it was changed and the reason it was changed, it is not so hard to come to that conclusion.

There is another case play (someone else can look it up) that has a thrown ball (try) that bounces off a defender's head and into the basket. The ball was thrown from behind the 3-point arc. The ruling in that case play is that it counts for 2 points. Why? At the point in time where the "try" is over (certain it will not be successful, below the rim, hits the floor, etc.) the thrown ball can no longer score for 3 points....any subsequent deflection is a NEW action. So, a thrown ball that can not possibly go in as released is not subject to being 3-points.

The judgement removed is in the intent of the thrower, not whether the "try" has ended or not. The former requires the reading of a mind. The latter only requires the observation of physical facts.

Agree. The difference is that the thrown ball is deflected up by the defender. If it comes down through the basket, it's considered as a 3-point try. If the same deflected pass comes down short though, as soon as it falls below the rim it is no longer considered as being a try. Hence the confusion. The original question in the OP was referring to the start of the play. Snaqs was talking about a possible end of that play instead.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I know we've had this discussion here before, and I'm not convinced this rule is meant to apply to all cases.

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

[DLH17]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

This is why I love this forum.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Does not need to be a try in order to count 3. Assuming the antecedent of "him" above is B1, your play is a 3-point bucket, since it is not ruled out by the exclusions under 5-2-1.

5-2-1:

"A successful try, tap or thrown ball from the field by a player who
is located behind the team's own 19-foot, 9-inch arc counts three points. A ball
that touches the floor, a teammate inside the arc, an official, or any other goal
from the field counts two points for the team into whose basket the ball is thrown."

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

[Scratch85]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

As I understand the rule, Yes. But I hope it never comes up and I don't have to.

Wasn't it just a few years ago that an interp was around that it required a try to count as three? Of course that would have been before the more recent case play.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A

2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

Y'all giving three for both of these?

Reading the rule, I don't know how you could award anything else.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Situation: A1 (standing at the top-right of the key in the 3 pt area) passes towards A2, cutting through the lane on the opposite side. Just as A2, standing in the paint, is about to catch the ball, B1 runs in and it hits him in the head and goes into the basket.

3. No different than the case play.

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

If it is deemed to be a try, then it is 3 points. If it is definitely not a try, then it is 2 points. My play had a pass parallel to the floor into the post that got deflected, changed direction dramatically and went into the basket. The OP sounds similar to my play. My interpreter and my former interpreter both indicated that 2 points was correct in this case. One is Fed & the other is IAABO.

Nope. 3. No different than the case play. Both interpreters are wrong.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I didn't say it needed to be a try.

26 year gap did.

Sitch 2: A1 shoots a three point shot, but it falls short and is an air ball. A2 and B2 attempt to get the rebound, but B2 outjumps A2 and is able to tip it and it goes in.

2. The try ended when it was apparent it wouldn't score.

Sitch 3: A1, from the corner (3 pt area), passes an alley oop pass towards A2. However, the pass sails over A2's hands and the basket. After going over the basket it hits B2 in the a) hands or b) head and bounces into the basket.

2. As Jurassic stated, once it's fallen below the basket, it's a 2.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

2. The try ended when it was apparent it wouldn't score.



2. When the ball touched A2's hands, it's no longer possible for a 3 to be scored.

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

On the 2nd one, it never hits A2's hands.

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So if it was a try, it only counts as 2; but if it's a pass, it's 3? Either way it's a ball thrown from behind the arc.

It sure seems that way. If there's clearly a try for three, and it falls below the rim, then the try for three is done, hence the two points.

However, if there never was a try for three, then it can't end, and any defensive deflection of a offense's ball from beyond the arc will still count as three.

I tend to think it would cut both ways, though. If A-1 is in the lane, and attempts a pass to A-2 in the corner, but it's blocked hard into the basket by B-3, who is next to A-2 and outside the arc, I would say that's a two-pointer. Again, it's where the offense releases the ball, right?