Inadvertent Kick on Throw In

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

As long as it goes off his foot and next hits inbounds, it's nothing.

Imo I think you have to judge whether it was a throw-in pass or a fumble. Both the NFHS and NCAA use similar language for a legal throw-in. They both say that the thrower has to release the ball on a pass directly into the court. If you judged that the thrower intended to kick the ball into the court, I'd agree it was nothing. If you instead judged that the the thrower inadvertantly kicked the ball, I'd go with Nevada's ruling.

But that's just me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Imo I think you have to judge whether it was a throw-in pass or a fumble. Both the NFHS and NCAA use similar language for a legal throw-in. They both say that the thrower has to release the ball on a pass directly into the court. If you judged that the thrower intended to kick the ball into the court, I'd agree it was nothing. If you instead judged that the the thrower inadvertantly kicked the ball, I'd go with Nevada's ruling.

But that's just me.

Now I'm just axin', but wouldn't this qualify as a kicked ball? 9-4?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Now I'm just axin', but wouldn't this qualify as a kicked ball? 9-4?

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again?

Case book play 9.2.2SitD

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again?

Case book play 9.2.2SitD

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

Still trying to redeem myself after that serious brain fart yesterday.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with Snaqwells, if what Jurassic said is what he meant.

What's your opinion of case book play of 9.2.2SitB(a) then where we're directed to re-set if the ball is fumbled forward? It doesn't say how much forward or how far forward or whether the ball went forwards in-bounds or not, just that we should re-set. Would you treat an inadvertently kicked ball differently? I wouldn't. And if you would, I'd appreciate a cite.

NFHS rules. Not sure if it's definitively covered under NCAA rules.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What's your opinion of case book play of 9.2.2SitB(a) then where we're directed to re-set if the ball is fumbled forward? It doesn't say how much forward or how far forward or whether the ball went forwards in-bounds or not, just that we should re-set. Would you treat an inadvertently kicked ball differently? I wouldn't. And if you would, I'd appreciate a cite.

NFHS rules. Not sure if it's definitively covered under NCAA rules.

Is that the right cite? I can't seem to find it in my 2010-2011 case book.

There is 9.2.1B (a), but here, it's not a fumble, it's a muff. And, that's completely different.

9.2.1B (b) is a fumble -- and a violation, but not really relevant to the play.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Apples and stereos.

Of course I wouldn't call an illegal dribble. Fundamental #5, dribbling or traveling rules do not apply during a throw-in, jump ball, or free throw.

It says nothing of kicked ball rules, and your post mentioned the player intentionally kicking the ball in as his throw-in pass.

Throw-in violations are listed under 9-2. See kicking the ball by the thrower in there anywhere?

It's a matter of intent imo, and that's why I made that statement. Did the thrower intend to throw-in the ball via kicking it to a team mate in-bounds? if so, I don't think that's a violation under either NFHS or NCAA rules.

Or was the kick inadvertant, and this should be treated as a fumble as in case book play 9.2.1SitB(a) where the ball is fumbled forward?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Did the thrower intend to throw-in the ball via kicking it to a team mate in-bounds? if so, I don't think that's a violation under either NFHS or NCAA rules.

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

Is the thrower-in a player? Yes. Did that player intentionally kick the ball? Yes. That's a violation. Not a throw-in violation under 9-2, perhaps; but definitely a kicking violation under 9-4.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

Is the thrower-in a player? Yes. Did that player intentionally kick the ball? Yes. That's a violation. Not a throw-in violation under 9-2, perhaps; but definitely a kicking violation under 9-4.

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should? Especially when none of those violations are listed as throw-in violations under 9-2? Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again?

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

This sounds to me like a question of player/team control.

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

This sounds to me like a question of player/team control.

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

While there certainly must be control for those two, that's not the answer for a couple of reasons.

First of all, in NCAA there is control during a throw in.
Second, there's control during a free throw.
Third, the rule doesn't tie this to control anywhere.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

No.