Inadvertent

[pizanno]

I had this situation that I still don't know what I should have done:

High school playoff game. Not a tight game, but not a blowout. No problems or trash talking thus far.

2nd half, Team A starts to make a run. A1 dunks in traffic to cut the lead to 2. Excitedly, and completely without malice, A1 turns and (without seeing B1 there) punches the air with emotion, catching B1 in the back of the head (he was also turning down court to continue play).

B1 goes down. A1 embarrassingly tries to help B1, but he stays down. Fortunately, B1 not injured...more shocked. He gets up and stays in the game (after sub).

Should I have called a foul? I did not. Coach wanted a foul, I think more because A1 had four fouls and Team A was making a run. He didn't like my "incidental contact" explaination, but agreed that it was an accident.

What would you have done? Is there a rule citation that covers this weird situation?

[ChuckElias]

Tough situation. You have a kid who gets punched in the back of the head and goes down, stays down. We've all seen kids do the fist pumping thing.

I honestly don't know what I'd do in that situation without seeing it for myself. It's hard to call a punch to the head incidental. It was clearly not intentional, but was it so hard that it could not be ignored? Seems that way from your description.

Without seeing it, and just going by your description, I think I have a dead ball contact foul. I don't see how you can have a kid go to the floor after getting punched and let it go. Again, just my opinion, and I didn't see it. But that's my gut reaction.

Chuck

[Ridge Wiz]

That would really be a tough call. I tend to agree with Chuck. How can you have that kind of contact without a call.

Does the defense ever foul on purpose during normal play of a game? I call a pushing foul even if B1 accidently trips A1. I know all my fouls are accidental unless I'm just trying to stop the clock in the final seconds.

Sorry, I don't have a reference.

[JAdams]

Don't think it would be a dead ball foul (as Chuck says above), because it's not a dead ball situation. But I would think you'd have to call something. Probably not an intentional foul or a flagrant foul, but maybe an ordinary personal foul. There was hard contact and a player went down, so (based on your description) I think I would have called an ordinary foul. But I wasn't there, so...

[APHP]

Aren't most fouls unintentional---if a player accidentally hits a shooter arm, do you ignore it?? Why would you ignore this one.

[Bart Tyson]

beep, foul

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by JAdams
Don't think it would be a dead ball foul (as Chuck says above), because it's not a dead ball situation.

The contact came after a made basket. The ball becomes dead until it is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I assumed that the contact occurred immediately after the basket, before the offense had taken it out again. This would be a dead ball technical foul.

Chuck

[pizanno]

Not that it changes anything, but I probably overstated the contact, and reaction.

I would characterize the "punch" as glancing, and B1 stayed down more out of drama (in hindsight) than injury. Got up and without much incident or apparent affect.

Those of you who would call fouls: Do you also call fouls when a person gets poked in the eye, accidentally, of course.

I'm thinking not all contact is a foul, intentional or othewise.

[pizanno]

Chuck-

The ball doesn't have to be in the inbounders hand to be at disposal, yes? Thus, can still be a live ball. Depends where the ball is.

This WAS right after the basket, and contributed to my reluctance to whistle a dead ball foul (= T) that would have been the player's fifth ("make the 5th a good one".

Originally posted by ChuckElias

The contact came after a made basket. The ball becomes dead until it is at the disposal of the thrower-in. I assumed that the contact occurred immediately after the basket, before the offense had taken it out again. This would be a dead ball technical foul.

Chuck

[Mark Padgett]

Here's my two cents. It sounds like this happened during a dead ball to me. You ignore contact during a dead ball unless it is intentional or flagrant. Certainly, this wasn't intentional, but was it flagrant?

I'm not saying it was, but here's some points to consider.

1) I'm not sure you can have a flagrant foul without there being the intent to foul, which wasn't there in this case

2) Seemingly contrary to statement 1 - you can define a flagrant act (and therefore a flagrant foul) as one that intends to injure another player (not the case here) or as an act that displays disregard for the safety of another player. You could make a case that anytime someone pumps their fist in the air, there is a chance they may make hard contact and therefore the act of pumping it displays disregard for the safety of others.

As I said, I'm not sure I agree that this should have been a foul call, but a foul call here (flagrant technical) may be defensible.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by pizanno

Those of you who would call fouls: Do you also call fouls when a person gets poked in the eye, accidentally, of course.

[/B]

Most of the time i don't see to poke in the eye. I see the reaction of the player getting hit in the eye. And therefore i know he got poked in the eye. So, in this case, no foul. However, if i see the poke in the eye than yes i have a foul. So, when i see the punch as you described i will call a common foul. The player earned his foul for being stupid. Please don't take the "stupid" literal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by pizanno
I had this situation that I still don't know what I should have done:

High school playoff game. Not a tight game, but not a blowout. No problems or trash talking thus far.

2nd half, Team A starts to make a run. A1 dunks in traffic to cut the lead to 2. Excitedly, and completely without malice, A1 turns and (without seeing B1 there) punches the air with emotion, catching B1 in the back of the head (he was also turning down court to continue play).

B1 goes down. A1 embarrassingly tries to help B1, but he stays down. Fortunately, B1 not injured...more shocked. He gets up and stays in the game (after sub).

Should I have called a foul? I did not. Coach wanted a foul, I think more because A1 had four fouls and Team A was making a run. He didn't like my "incidental contact" explaination, but agreed that it was an accident.

What would you have done? Is there a rule citation that covers this weird situation?

I do not want to take the emotion out of the game, but it was Jim Brown who was quoted about dancing around after making a touchdown: "Act like you have been there before."

Having said that, I think that while A1 may have been acting without malice, but I do a slow burn when I see either one of my two sons (ages: 9 and 12) do that kind of nonsense during one of their games, because while they are pumping their fist or chesting their teammate, the opponents are ripping down court with the ball on a fast break.

So, what is my take. I think that you have a dead ball contact technical foul on A1. While his pumping his fist was a show of emotion to pump up his teammates, it can also be construed by his opponents as taunting. The logical question to be asked is if you do nothing and B1 or one of his teammates had decided to give A1 a knuckle sandwich, what are you going to do about A1's original act.

It is a tough call, but that is why we are being paid the big dollars to make these tough decisions.

[Bart Tyson]

Mark, I can live with a T. You do have great point in if the other kid would have came up swinging, after you call a common foul or a no call. Hmmmm this would be hard to explain to the coach and supervisor.

[Art N]

At least a personal here. We always will have the accidental hand to face or body...the finger in the eye...the player who can't get his brakes to work and bumps a player which causes the travel or pushes him out of bounds....wouldn't you call a foul on those? I think I could also live with the T if the player went down and/or it was hard contact.

[tharbert]

IMO, you had the right call. I think you would have recognized a flagrant/intentional act immediately. Trust yourself.