Inadvertent Kick on Throw In

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If dribbling and traveling rules don't apply OOB, what makes you think that deliberately kicking the ball should? Especially when none of those violations are listed as throw-in violations under 9-2? Would you call a thrower for fisting the ball to a teammate in-bounds too?

Yep. I'd also call him for swinging his elbows if he did so.
And you're going to allow him to punt it down the court?

It seems we have what's called an impasse.

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, you consider it the same as the thrower dribbling the ball OOB. Would you call an illegal second dribble on a thrower if they dribbled the ball, caught it and dribbled it again?

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

WHAT??? Intentionally kicking the ball is NOT a violation???

This sounds to me like a question of player/team control.

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bainsey

This sounds to me like a question of player/team control.

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

While there certainly must be control for those two, that's not the answer for a couple of reasons.

First of all, in NCAA there is control during a throw in.
Second, there's control during a free throw.
Third, the rule doesn't tie this to control anywhere.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

Correct, if they wanted the thrower to be able to kick the ball then #5 would have included that kicking rule does not apply to the thrower on a throwin.

Me think JR is just stirring a conversation, a good thing.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

1) only reason the dribbling and traveling rules don't apply is that there's a NOTE that specifically tells us they don't apply. Have you found such a note that refers to kicking violations?

2) I personally would only call it if the throw-in was closely contested and there was a possibility that the fist might connect with an opponent. But I believe that by rule, it would be a violation.

Have you found anything under 9.2 that refers to kicking or fisting the ball as being a violation by the thrower? How do I know what the full intent of the Rules Committee was when it came to exceptions to the throw-in rules? Maybe they just didn't have room ...or reason...to list them all.

2) And that leads me to an additional point. Afaik both kicking and fisting the ball were implemented mainly as safety rules(with kicking also giving a defender an advantage not meant by specific rule). They were put in the book to stop an act that could possibly endanger another player. Well, on a throw-in by rule the opponents have to be in-bounds....not OOB. As do the thrower's team mates on a spot throw-in. Team mates can be OOB on an unrestricted end-line throw-in but is there any reason to kick the ball to a team mate standing right next to you? And if the team mate is at the other end of the end line, where's the chance of injury. The safety factor is just not a factor when it comes to the thrower imo.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bainsey

There must be control in order for a travel or illegal dribble violation to occur. Must there also be control for a kick violation?

No.

[Indianaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if the team mate is at the other end of the end line, where's the chance of injury. The safety factor is just not a factor when it comes to the thrower imo.

How bout a shank?

[Adam]

Disagree with the safety factor on the kick; as well as the advantage. It's not soccer. A contested throwin would have the defender in danger if the thrower was allowed to punt the ball. Also, the ability to punt the ball would be a distinct advantage for a tired player or a player with a weaker throwing arm. Bring in your soccer star and have him punt the throwin down court.

If B1 was contesting the throwin and A1 decided to start swinging his elbows to back him off; would you call it? What if A2 started doing it, during the throwin, to clear space for him to receive a pass.

Finally, why is it a violation for B1 to kick the ball "during" the throwin if it's not a violation for A1 to do it?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

Me think JR is just stirring a conversation, a good thing.

Nope, JR is wondering whether what we're arguing is definitively covered by rule. I'm not sure it is. I'm equally unsure as to whether I'm on the right side of the argument either ..also because I'm unsure if it's definitively covered.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Next question, is the rule fundamental #5 the only place that tells us traveling and dribbling rules don't apply to the thrower on a throwin? Or is it written within the rules somewhere?

6-1. (I thought this was a NOTE, but it's just in the body of the article.)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

1)If B1 was contesting the throwin and A1 decided to start swinging his elbows to back him off; would you call it? What if A2 started doing it, during the throwin, to clear space for him to receive a pass.

2) Finally, why is it a violation for B1 to kick the ball "during" the throwin if it's not a violation for A1 to do it?

1) Um, I wouldn't allow B1 to get OOB while contesting the throw-in. We got rules to cover that situation. And all the thrower has to do is take a step back if a defender crowds the line legally.

2) It's a violation for any player in-bounds to kick a throw-in, isn't it? But I can't see any rule either way anywhere saying the thrower OOB has similar restrictions.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Nope, JR is wondering whether what we're arguing is definitively covered by rule. I'm not sure it is.

It's covered by rule. I'm sure of it. I've already given the citation. Here it is again:

A player shall not travel with the ball, as in 4-44, intentionally kick it, as in 4-29, strike it with the fist or cause it to enter and pass through the basket from below.

NOTE: Kicking the ball is a violation only when it is an intentional act; accidentally striking the ball with the foot or leg is not a violation.

It does not specify an inbounds player, and it does not except a thrower-in. This covers the play definitively.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

How bout a shank?

Good question. What if the player was a Sikh carrying a kirpan? What would you do?

Me? I just became the U.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by LeeBallanfant

"...Ball inadvertently goes off his foot..."

That's not a kick, fellas.

There's no such thing as an inadvertent kick. Kicking is an intentional act.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

It's covered by rule. I'm sure of it. I've already given the citation. Here it is again:


It does not specify an inbounds player, and it does not except a thrower-in. This covers the play definitively.

Just re-read my previous rebuttals, please. Saves me a lot of time.

We disagree.