Here's a weird clock question

[Mark Padgett]

I had a second year guy ask me this the other night at our local kids rec league ref meeting.

A1 is to inbound following a violation on team B. The clock is stopped. A1 holds the ball over the line and it is grabbed by B1, forcing a jump ball. Would you chop the clock as soon as the ball is touched by B1 then stop it virtually immediately? Or would you rule the ball wasn't legally touched so the clock would not start?

He also asked if it was an AP throw-in instead of one following a violation, who would get the subsequent throw-in and what would happen to the AP arrow.

[muxbule]

The clock question is a good one and I don't have my books to research but the held ball on the AP throw in stays with the team who was making the throw. Since there was no end to the throw in the arrow stays where it was until the completed AP throw in to come.
Again, no books to site rules or casebook but it won't take long for someone.

[Adam]

Seems similar to the kicked throwin dilemma. The clock starts when the ball is touched, so it seems fair for there to be some lag time.
Personally, it would be hard for me to "correct" either way.

[centkyref]

I was involved with the kicked throw in dilemma discussion and thought I'd throw in my .02 on this one. IMO, the reason for the alternating possession rules to be in there at all is for the teams to "take turns" in what used to be jump ball situations. 6-4-4 currently reads "The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5."

In the sitch above, there is an AP throwin that "ends" with a held ball. (But it doesn't end as in 4-42-5, thus the conundrum) Why not just revise the wording of 6-4-4 to say the direction of the possession arrow is reversed when the ball is placed at the disposal of a team for an alternating possession throw in.

This seems to me to be a fairly simple editorial change, and gets rid of those rare and obscure rulings that have to happen because of the wording of 6-4-4, and restores the "take turns" intent of the alternating possession.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by centkyref

I was involved with the kicked throw in dilemma discussion and thought I'd throw in my .02 on this one. IMO, the reason for the alternating possession rules to be in there at all is for the teams to "take turns" in what used to be jump ball situations. 6-4-4 currently reads "The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends as in 4-42-5."

In the sitch above, there is an AP throwin that "ends" with a held ball. (But it doesn't end as in 4-42-5, thus the conundrum) Why not just revise the wording of 6-4-4 to say the direction of the possession arrow is reversed when the ball is placed at the disposal of a team for an alternating possession throw in.

This seems to me to be a fairly simple editorial change, and gets rid of those rare and obscure rulings that have to happen because of the wording of 6-4-4, and restores the "take turns" intent of the alternating possession.

I'm with you, but the NFHS has determined the arrow presents the throw-in team with the opportunity to have an entire throw-in. Personally, I think once the thrower is handed the ball, the AP arrow has done its job, but the NFHS disagrees (along with 99% of the posters on this board).

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Seems similar to the kicked throwin dilemma. The clock starts when the ball is touched, so it seems fair for there to be some lag time.
Personally, it would be hard for me to "correct" either way.

The clock doesn't start when the ball is touched. It is started when the ball is legally touched by a player on the court after it has been released by the thrower.

In the held ball and kicked pass situations the clock does not start.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The clock doesn't start when the ball is touched. It is started when the ball is legally touched by a player on the court after it has been released by the thrower.

In the held ball and kicked pass situations the clock does not start.

Right, I'd forgotten about the "after it has been released" part, but I'm not sure about the "legally" part; unless it's new. I'll check my book when I get in the car.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Right, I'd forgotten about the "after it has been released" part, but I'm not sure about the "legally" part; unless it's new. I'll check my book when I get in the car.

5-9-4: "If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the
ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by
the thrower."

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Would you chop the clock as soon as the ball is touched by B1 then stop it virtually immediately? Or would you rule the ball wasn't legally touched so the clock would not start?

Neither. 5-9-4.

[grunewar]

Where's our infamous table-guy when you need him? He'd know what to do!

[chseagle]

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I had a second year guy ask me this the other night at our local kids rec league ref meeting.

A1 is to inbound following a violation on team B. The clock is stopped. A1 holds the ball over the line and it is grabbed by B1, forcing a jump ball. Would you chop the clock as soon as the ball is touched by B1 then stop it virtually immediately? Or would you rule the ball wasn't legally touched so the clock would not start?

He also asked if it was an AP throw-in instead of one following a violation, who would get the subsequent throw-in and what would happen to the AP arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

Wrong again. I'd tell you to stick to timing but it looks like you don't really know what you're doing in that area either.

Player or team control has got diddly-squat to do with starting the clock on a throw-in. The pertinent rule....5-9-4... has already been cited.

[chseagle]

AI (OOB Player) never released the ball to be inbounds, so the clock would not be started.

SECTION 9 RE-STARTING THE CLOCK
ART. 1 . . . After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.
ART. 2 . . . If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
ART. 4 . . . If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

In the OP, A1 (the thrower) never releases the ball although B1 is holding the ball. Because the ball HAS NOT been released by the thrower, the clock will not start.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

Wrong again. I'd tell you to stick to timing but it looks like you don't really know what you're doing in that area either.

Player or team control has got diddly-squat to do with starting the clock on a throw-in. The pertinent rule....5-9-4... has already been cited.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

In the OP, A1 (the thrower) never releases the ball although B1 is holding the ball. Because the ball HAS NOT been released by the thrower, the clock will not start.

In the OP, you are correct. But your blanket assertion that the clock does not start because there is no team control ... that is just wrong. Team control has exactly nothing to do with when the clock properly starts. The clock starts...wait for it...when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court... And merely touching the ball does not create player or team control.

[chseagle]

ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.

In the case of a missed free throw, the clock can be started by an offensive player tapping the ball for a try on the rebound, or a defensive player taps the ball towards another player.

On opening jumps, the clock starts when the ball is tapped by one or both jumpers, unless signaled otherwise.

However as stated in 5-9-1 the timer can start the clock if they do not see the floor official signal start clock/neglects to signal (their discretion on what it means by ball legally touched), unless floor official specifically signals continued time out.

I always wait for the floor official to signal start clock before the clock starts. Rarely have I had to start the clock due to failure to see the start clock signal.

Generally when I see the start clock signal, there is player/team control established except during jump balls & free throw rebounds.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

In the OP, you are correct. But your blanket assertion that the clock does not start because there is no team control ... that is just wrong. Team control has exactly nothing to do with when the clock properly starts. The clock starts...wait for it...when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court... And merely touching the ball does not create player or team control.