Here's a weird clock question

[chseagle]

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I had a second year guy ask me this the other night at our local kids rec league ref meeting.

A1 is to inbound following a violation on team B. The clock is stopped. A1 holds the ball over the line and it is grabbed by B1, forcing a jump ball. Would you chop the clock as soon as the ball is touched by B1 then stop it virtually immediately? Or would you rule the ball wasn't legally touched so the clock would not start?

He also asked if it was an AP throw-in instead of one following a violation, who would get the subsequent throw-in and what would happen to the AP arrow.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chseagle

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

Wrong again. I'd tell you to stick to timing but it looks like you don't really know what you're doing in that area either.

Player or team control has got diddly-squat to do with starting the clock on a throw-in. The pertinent rule....5-9-4... has already been cited.

[chseagle]

AI (OOB Player) never released the ball to be inbounds, so the clock would not be started.

SECTION 9 RE-STARTING THE CLOCK
ART. 1 . . . After time has been out, the clock shall be started when the official signals time-in. If the official neglects to signal, the timer is authorized to start the clock as per rule, unless an official specifically signals continued time-out.
ART. 2 . . . If play is started or resumed by a jump, the clock shall be started when the tossed ball is legally touched.
ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.
ART. 4 . . . If play is resumed by a throw-in, the clock shall be started when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court after it is released by the thrower.

In the OP, A1 (the thrower) never releases the ball although B1 is holding the ball. Because the ball HAS NOT been released by the thrower, the clock will not start.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Tsk, tsk, tsk....

Wrong again. I'd tell you to stick to timing but it looks like you don't really know what you're doing in that area either.

Player or team control has got diddly-squat to do with starting the clock on a throw-in. The pertinent rule....5-9-4... has already been cited.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by chseagle

In the OP, A1 (the thrower) never releases the ball although B1 is holding the ball. Because the ball HAS NOT been released by the thrower, the clock will not start.

In the OP, you are correct. But your blanket assertion that the clock does not start because there is no team control ... that is just wrong. Team control has exactly nothing to do with when the clock properly starts. The clock starts...wait for it...when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court... And merely touching the ball does not create player or team control.

[chseagle]

ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.

In the case of a missed free throw, the clock can be started by an offensive player tapping the ball for a try on the rebound, or a defensive player taps the ball towards another player.

On opening jumps, the clock starts when the ball is tapped by one or both jumpers, unless signaled otherwise.

However as stated in 5-9-1 the timer can start the clock if they do not see the floor official signal start clock/neglects to signal (their discretion on what it means by ball legally touched), unless floor official specifically signals continued time out.

I always wait for the floor official to signal start clock before the clock starts. Rarely have I had to start the clock due to failure to see the start clock signal.

Generally when I see the start clock signal, there is player/team control established except during jump balls & free throw rebounds.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

In the OP, you are correct. But your blanket assertion that the clock does not start because there is no team control ... that is just wrong. Team control has exactly nothing to do with when the clock properly starts. The clock starts...wait for it...when the ball touches, or is legally touched by, a player on the court... And merely touching the ball does not create player or team control.

[Back In The Saddle]

Jump ball, throw-in, free throw missed, in all cases the clock starts when the ball is legally touched. If the clock doesn't start until team control is established, it was started late.

[Adam]

This, as has been stated, is just wrong.

Originally Posted by chseagle

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

But is this a retraction?

Originally Posted by chseagle

AI (OOB Player) never released the ball to be inbounds, so the clock would not be started.

(snip)
In the OP, A1 (the thrower) never releases the ball although B1 is holding the ball. Because the ball HAS NOT been released by the thrower, the clock will not start.

then there's this:

Originally Posted by chseagle

ART. 3 . . . If a free throw is not successful and the ball is to remain live, the clock shall be started when the ball touches or is touched by a player on the court.

In the case of a missed free throw, the clock can be started by an offensive player tapping the ball for a try on the rebound, or a defensive player taps the ball towards another player.

On opening jumps, the clock starts when the ball is tapped by one or both jumpers, unless signaled otherwise.

However as stated in 5-9-1 the timer can start the clock if they do not see the floor official signal start clock/neglects to signal (their discretion on what it means by ball legally touched), unless floor official specifically signals continued time out.

I always wait for the floor official to signal start clock before the clock starts. Rarely have I had to start the clock due to failure to see the start clock signal.

Generally when I see the start clock signal, there is player/team control established except during jump balls & free throw rebounds.

Key word here is "generally." Don't base your understanding of the rules on what you generally see happen. Quite a few times each game you'll see a throw-in pass tipped before it is controlled.

[chseagle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Key word here is "generally." Don't base your understanding of the rules on what you generally see happen. Quite a few times each game you'll see a throw-in pass tipped before it is controlled.

In other words, I was meaning most of the time.

As has been mentioned several times, the timer is not right there in front of/next to the play, so the timer has to rely on the floor official to signal when to start/stop the clock.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by chseagle

However as stated in 5-9-1 the timer can start the clock if they do not see the floor official signal start clock/neglects to signal (their discretion on what it means by ball legally touched), unless floor official specifically signals continued time out.

I find the thought of eagle using his discretion to be somewhat troubling.

[Larks]

Maybe I missed it...

A1 holds ball over boundry line on an AP throw in and was tied up.

So mechanically, I see 99.999995% of officials kill it before chopping and going immediately into a held ball signal.

Most timers arent going to pluck the "start clock" thingy on and off real quick in this sitch.

No way anyone has knowledge of time consumed.

Without knowledge, how are we addressing this aspect of the OP by rule?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Larks

Maybe I missed it...

A1 holds ball over boundry line on an AP throw in and was tied up.

So mechanically, I see 99.999995% of officials kill it before chopping and going immediately into a held ball signal.

Most timers arent going to pluck the "start clock" thingy on and off real quick in this sitch.

No way anyone has knowledge of time consumed.

Without knowledge, how are we addressing this aspect of the OP by rule?

We're addressing it by 5-9-4 (I think you missed it). Clock does not start here.

[Larks]

Oh....AFTER it's released!!

To quote the poet laureate Rosanne Rosannadan...nevermind

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Larks

Oh....AFTER it's released!!

To quote the poet laureate Rosanne Rosannadan...nevermind

Tsk, tsk, tsk......

Tsk!

We hear from another one of Chseagle's illegitimate sons.....






Heeheeheehee......

[Larks]

yeah yeah....

Its funny how you read something 3 or 4 times and miss a word.

Happens to my wife all the time....I'll e-mail her on game day: "Honey, after the game tonight were having a couple beers and then I'll be home". Funny, all she picks up is "After the game I'll be home".

Of course I've learned from this..."What time will you be home?" I'm asked. the answer is always...."yes."

[APG]

Originally Posted by chseagle

The clock should never have started as there was no player/team control inbounds.

Jump ball to start the game...both jumpers touch the ball legally. Are you saying you won't start the clock when the jumpers touch the ball? Because according to what you just stated, it wouldn't start since there is no team/player control in this situation...

The rule has already been posted earlier as to when the clock should be correctly started.