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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 03:42pm
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Team A has the ball out of bounds with .3 seconds left in the quarter/game. A1 throws the ball inbounds towards A2 who is under the basket and is going to try and "tap" the ball into the goal. An instant BEFORE A2 taps the ball (his tap is the first touching of the ball) the horn sounds. The "Tap" is successful. It was obvious to the officials the clock operator started the clock early. What is/would be the correct procedure?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 03:46pm
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Easy call, count the basket as you have definite knowledge that the clock/horn was wrong.
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 03:46pm
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Since you have personal knowledge that the timer was incorrect and you have definite knowledge that .3 seconds were remaining, I would count the basket. It seems to me that the player/team should not be penalized for a mistake by the timer.
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 03:55pm
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Just like if there is 1.5 secs left and the clock never starts. Easy call!!
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 04:22pm
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What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 04:26pm
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Makes no difference coach...sorry.
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
If A1 taps it in then it counts, assuming B1 did not touch the tip. If B1 came close best to huddle with your partners to get it right. Did B1 touch? If so, did more than .3 come off before A1 tapped?

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Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 04:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
It does when the clock is properly operated.

Rule 2 Officials and Their Duties
SECTION 12 TIMERS' DUTIES
ART. 7 . . . Indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter or extra period. This signal terminates player activity. If a supplementary red light is used, the timers' signal is the official expiration of playing time.

A horn for a shot clock does not terminate player activity - play to the whistle. an end of period horn does terminate player activity. This is back to my favorite old discussion about an inadvertent end of period horn - is it the same as an inadvertent whistle? I say yes, many others say no.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Feb 20, 2003, 11:15pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
If A1 taps it in then it counts, assuming B1 did not touch the tip. If B1 came close best to huddle with your partners to get it right. Did B1 touch? If so, did more than .3 come off before A1 tapped?


First: We have established that the clock was not started correctly.

Second: A1 should not be penalized because the clock operator did not start the clock correctly. Therefore the goal shall count.

Third: The section and article in Rule 2 that states that the horn is the signal that ends all player activity is not applicable to this situation. Assume that the clock had been started correctly. B1 still has the right to attempt to block the shot. B1 could still even commit basket interference or goaltending after the horn and his activity would be allowed.

Fourth: If B1 had managed to tip the ball after A1 had tipped the ball and the ball still went through the basket, the field goal would have counted. I do not have my rule books in front if me and I am getting ready to go to bed, so I am sure that somebody will do my job for me and quote the appropriate NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rule, section, and article that supports my position. I know it is there because my partner discussed this type of play a few weeks ago and the rule is there to back my interpretation.

Good night all.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 21, 2003, 12:59am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
It does when the clock is properly operated.



The tap is like a try. If it is in the air when the horn sounds, and then it goes in, the basket still counts. Even if B1 touches it (not sure what Dan Ref meant by his remark). Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. summed it up well.

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Old Fri Feb 21, 2003, 08:35am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
What if B1 went up to block and pulled his hand down at the horn sound? You know that time didn't expire, but B played to the horn and stopped. Are you now penalizing them if the bucket counts?

Just trying to make it interesting
If A1 taps it in then it counts, assuming B1 did not touch the tip. If B1 came close best to huddle with your partners to get it right. Did B1 touch? If so, did more than .3 come off before A1 tapped?


First: We have established that the clock was not started correctly.

Second: A1 should not be penalized because the clock operator did not start the clock correctly. Therefore the goal shall count.

Third: The section and article in Rule 2 that states that the horn is the signal that ends all player activity is not applicable to this situation. Assume that the clock had been started correctly. B1 still has the right to attempt to block the shot. B1 could still even commit basket interference or goaltending after the horn and his activity would be allowed.

Fourth: If B1 had managed to tip the ball after A1 had tipped the ball and the ball still went through the basket, the field goal would have counted. I do not have my rule books in front if me and I am getting ready to go to bed, so I am sure that somebody will do my job for me and quote the appropriate NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rule, section, and article that supports my position. I know it is there because my partner discussed this type of play a few weeks ago and the rule is there to back my interpretation.

Good night all.
Nothing about the clock starting improperly guarantees that the play legitimately took .3 seconds or less. Nothing you write here relieves us from our duty to get the play right, regardless of whether the clock started propoerly. If the clock started improperly good game management requires us to communicate with ourselves & the coaches our decision & the basis for our decision. Have a good nap.
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Old Fri Feb 21, 2003, 08:39am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
It does when the clock is properly operated.



The tap is like a try. If it is in the air when the horn sounds, and then it goes in, the basket still counts. Even if B1 touches it (not sure what Dan Ref meant by his remark). Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. summed it up well.
The clock starts as soon as B1 touches the ball on the throw-in, which means we are now eating into the .3 seconds. If .4 seconds elapse between B1's touch & A1's tap the basket cannot be good. This has nothing to do with whether or not the clock is started properly. Seems pretty obvious, no?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Feb 21, 2003, 09:20am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
It does when the clock is properly operated.



The tap is like a try. If it is in the air when the horn sounds, and then it goes in, the basket still counts. Even if B1 touches it (not sure what Dan Ref meant by his remark). Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. summed it up well.
The clock starts as soon as B1 touches the ball on the throw-in, which means we are now eating into the .3 seconds. If .4 seconds elapse between B1's touch & A1's tap the basket cannot be good. This has nothing to do with whether or not the clock is started properly. Seems pretty obvious, no?
I think the confusion in the above is whether B1 touched before, or after, A1.
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Old Fri Feb 21, 2003, 09:40am
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Rogers
If this happens (which is unlikely), too bad.
The horn doesn't make the ball dead.
It does when the clock is properly operated.



The tap is like a try. If it is in the air when the horn sounds, and then it goes in, the basket still counts. Even if B1 touches it (not sure what Dan Ref meant by his remark). Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. summed it up well.
The clock starts as soon as B1 touches the ball on the throw-in, which means we are now eating into the .3 seconds. If .4 seconds elapse between B1's touch & A1's tap the basket cannot be good. This has nothing to do with whether or not the clock is started properly. Seems pretty obvious, no?
I think the confusion in the above is whether B1 touched before, or after, A1.
Oh. Never mind.



Obviously I misread the case, I thought it said B1 touched the ball before A1. Sorry.
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