Words can't describe.... this video.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

No it doesn't. And he's one of my assignors.

So is this in OH? No problem wearing the side panel shirts there for a HS game? Or is this a college game?

Based on looking at the floor markings, I thought this game was at the University of Minnesota Crookston (NSIC, Golden Eagles).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

This is not the point of this video being posted, I know. The coach was 100% deserved in his two Ts. Wanted to bring something else up that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

I'm not passing judgment and I know some people aren't going to like this but I believe a foul may have been missed. Looking at the 2nd video, when the kid pulls up for 3 on the fast break, notice how the ball continues upward. I'm no scientist but I have to believe basic physics tells us if the defender's hand is slapping down and the shooter is bringing the ball up, if the ball is contacted, that ball should be forced down or at least slow it's ascent. It goes about 12 feet in the air. Also, looks as if the shooter's left hand goes down while the ball and right arm continue up.

I have to believe there was some contact here and if there's any contact from a defender from behind we have a foul.

Thoughts?

Certainly could be true....and it also could possibly be true that there was a foul missed at the other end before the first "T".

But a missed call can never excuse the behavior that the coach exhibited imo.

There isn't a one of us that hasn't missed a call at some time. And I can guarantee that NO official ever wanted to miss a call either. And nobody feels worse that the official who just found out that he had missed a call. All you can do is see if you can learn something from it and then just move on to the next call.

Most coaches know that also.....will grumble a bit...and then move on too. And that's the way it should be.

Jmo.....

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So is this in OH? No problem wearing the side panel shirts there for a HS game?

Not sure of the answer to the first question, but the OHSAA discourages the use of of side panel shirts.

Some officials around here use them anyway for non-tournament games, either (1) to show off that they do college too, or (2) to misleadingly suggest that they do college too.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

This is not the point of this video being posted, I know. The coach was 100% deserved in his two Ts. Wanted to bring something else up that I don't think anyone has mentioned.

I'm not passing judgment and I know some people aren't going to like this but I believe a foul may have been missed. Looking at the 2nd video, when the kid pulls up for 3 on the fast break, notice how the ball continues upward. I'm no scientist but I have to believe basic physics tells us if the defender's hand is slapping down and the shooter is bringing the ball up, if the ball is contacted, that ball should be forced down or at least slow it's ascent. It goes about 12 feet in the air. Also, looks as if the shooter's left hand goes down while the ball and right arm continue up.

I have to believe there was some contact here and if there's any contact from a defender from behind we have a foul.

Thoughts?

Agreed. I think that there was a foul on this play. I also find it interesting that he does not signal that the shot is a 3 point attempt or not (certainly the trail is not in position to see the play). The shot was close enough that some indication should have been made by the lead.

The signal he is giving does not appear to be the "foul tip" signal, but rather a signal that I typically only see used for a held ball when the shooter was unable to release the ball for a try. The signal indicates that a hand was on top of the ball preventing the upward movement for a shot. In Central Ohio, I only see that hand signal immediately after a held ball signal is given on such a try.

As you point out, the ball goes 12 feet into the air, the shooter's right hand continues upward, yet his left hand goes down toward the floor. If the defender had gotten on top of the ball or otherwise slowed the ball down, the shooter's shooting hand (RIGHT HAND) should have gone downward since it would have been behind and under the ball, not the hand that would have been on the side of the ball.

None of this excuses the actions of the coach -- particularly in the first video as we have no idea what he said in the second one.

[Adam]

It looked to me like the shooter in the 2nd video was well inside the arc.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It looked to me like the shooter in the 2nd video was well inside the arc.

No, definitely outside the arc.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Not sure of the answer to the first question, but the OHSAA discourages the use of of side panel shirts.

Some officials around here use them anyway for non-tournament games, either (1) to show off that they do college too, or (2) to misleadingly suggest that they do college too.

Depends on the part of Ohio you are in, as well. In Central Ohio, none of our assignors have a problem with us wearing panels. They would like us to match as a crew, but there are games when crews are mixed. I always have both with me. I prefer to match, but if I am working with two partners one wearing panels and the other not, well, matching becomes a challenge.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It looked to me like the shooter in the 2nd video was well inside the arc.

Clearly inside the arc. I'll add something else, and if it's been mentioned, I apologize, haven't read every post. It may have been a clear block, yet we have an airborne shooter who looks like he's fouled before returning to floor. That alone is enough for me to call a foul. Of course, the angle is bad, it's a video, and I'm a good 60 feet away.

Like taking a hit on 16, I'm always protecting the airborne shooter.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

So is this in OH? No problem wearing the side panel shirts there for a HS game? Or is this a college game?

Based on looking at the floor markings, I thought this game was at the University of Minnesota Crookston (NSIC, Golden Eagles).

This is in MN @ Concordia U - St. Paul. It's a HS section semi final from 2008.

And wide panel shirts around here are worn by many people, no mandate either way from the state HS league. I prefer to wear regular shirts but I'm often the junior guy on the crew so I go with the flow.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

No, definitely outside the arc.

You know, you're right. I was looking at the white arc when I watched it the first few times. He's between the two arcs.

As for the missing three signal, easily explained since the shot never really got away.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I was not sarcastic or ironic in any way. Bringing in yet another Rutledge red herring (not closely guarded) does not improve your case: the reason the "blocked shot" mechanic is bad does not apply to that signal either.

Maybe I missed something in school, but usually when people have discussions or debates on issues, you bring in similar or related issues to make a point. That is what is advocated in most position papers I had to write or anytime I was in speech class both in high school and college. You address the opposition point of view by using a related issue. And it was considered a bad signal until it was adopted. Now is it the fact that it is not adopted by the NF that makes it a bad signal, or something else?

Originally Posted by mbyron

Who said anything about coaches going off? It's a bad signal because it opens the door to double calls (foul/no-foul situations). I invite you either to address that point or simply to assert that you intend to use a bad mechanic as you see fit.

You obviously did not see these comments on page 2 of this page which started the signal discussion. And where my comments you eventually responded to were based on.

Originally Posted by RichMSN

On the second play, I think the official giving the gator chop is just throwing fuel on the fire. Why signal anything? The lack of a whistle tells me everything I need to know.

Let me say this, the use of the signal is not the issue, when the signal is used is the issue. If I have a blocked shot where I have a shooter falls to the floor and the ball goes out of bounds, and I give a "blocked" signal (or tip signal) and then signal out of bounds, not sure how you would likely have two opposing calls. Of course if anyone were to only use that signal and did so immediately that would be the case. But if the play is been ruled on and we are going the other way, I have no problem personally with someone signaling if they feel necessary. You do not like this, but we do not use the "not closely guarded" signal all over the court, we use it in very special situations to clarify why there is not a count. And the "blocked shot" signal should be used even less and in very specific situations if at all. I did not say you had to use it or not, but since this was talked about as to why the call was not made, I commented in a very specific context. Sorry that you seemed to miss the context.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me say this, the use of the signal is not the issue, when the signal is used is the issue. If I have a blocked shot where I have a shooter falls to the floor and the ball goes out of bounds, and I give a "blocked" signal (or tip signal) and then signal out of bounds, not sure how you would likely have two opposing calls. Of course if anyone were to only use that signal and did so immediately that would be the case. But if the play is been ruled on and we are going the other way, I have no problem personally with someone signaling if they feel necessary. And you do not like this, but we do not use the "not closely guarded" signal all over the court, we use it in very special situations to clarify why there is not a count. And the "blocked shot" signal should be used even less and in very specific situation. And I did not say you had to use it or not, but since this was talked about as to why the call was not made, I commented in a very specific context. Sorry that you seemed to miss the context.

Peace

I didn't miss anything. We just disagree. I don't have a problem with a supplemental signal, I just think it looks awful and oversold in this particular situation.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by fullor30

Clearly inside the arc. I'll add something else, and if it's been mentioned, I apologize, haven't read every post. It may have been a clear block, yet we have an airborne shooter who looks like he's fouled before returning to floor. That alone is enough for me to call a foul. Of course, the angle is bad, it's a video, and I'm a good 60 feet away.

Like taking a hit on 16, I'm always protecting the airborne shooter.

After further review, oops, wrong arc, although it's not clear if he's on line or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I didn't miss anything. We just disagree. I don't have a problem with a supplemental signal, I just think it looks awful and oversold in this particular situation.

Rich,

I was not responding to you directly. I was using your post as an example as to how the conversation was raised. Please read the comments in who I was talking to.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let's see...

The head coach that was complaining was sitting at the end of his bench which was closest to the other team's basket, somewhere around the second lane space. The foul that he wanted called occurred all the way across the court appriximately at around the top of the 3-point arc.

Let's do the math.....

It's 50 feet across the court plus another few feet from the bench.

From where the coach was sitting, it would be about 54 feet down the court at the other end.

Sooooo....54 feet down and 50 feet across...square the hypotenuse...round off....deduct 2 ....add 6 inches for the Ron Jeremy(tm) effect.....and it comes out to occurring one helluva long way away from the coach.

Yup, the FAR bench had a great look at the steal.

You really do think like a coach, don't you?

So you are saying that its not possible for a coach to be correct just because the are farther away or have a different angle? From the video, the players arm was grabbed, and the official was too close to the play, looking back at it.

Are you saying that officials are alway right just because they happen to be closer to the play?

The official that the tirade was directed at was closer to the coach when he stormed the floor and he failed to make a call.

We have all seen plays that officials have failed to make calls on. It is possible that there were previous plays that merited a whistle but were not called that became part of the initial blow up.

Quite frankly, they should've run him when he charged the official, then when he had a second blow up after the T.