Words can't describe.... this video.

[TheOracle]

This is pretty fascinating. The first video shows what might be a foul, but these types of calls are missed on occasion. The coach flips, gets T'd pretty late. He also could have gotten thrown for continuing to be out of control. The second video shows what I would consider a clear foul. He's not is position, moving towards the shooter, and the shooter goes down hard with the defender ending up where the shooter initiated his shot. It's pretty obvious that even if the ball was touched, he did not have a chance to land. The severity of that play with no whistle, combined with the situation of a close game with less than a minute, does not look good for the crew. IMO, they missed an Oh My God.

Throwing someone after a call was probably missed without a freak out like video #1 doesn't look good. I use T's as a last resort, which is a minority opinion with this crowd. The first one was automatic and could have even been an ejection, but I don't like video 2 at all.

BTW, the facial expression of the C on both of these is poor. Smirking is never professional no mkatter what a coach or player does.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you have a rules reference for your safety issue? I am not finding that reference in the rulebook anywhere.

Peace

Jeff, you are missing the point on this. I said in my 8-5 job I can see things from a distance that concern safety. If you are putting someone's life in danger, for you to dismiss it as merely my being too far away you are off base.

I realize this play is not a safety issue, but it is possible that the coach saw it better from a distance.

I get that you say there might have been a tip prior to contact with the arm.

What do you have if a ball is tipped away and is loose, a player reaches out and grabs the arm/jersey/leg of a player that is now positioned to secure the ball and is now no longer able to make a play for the ball?

[icallfouls]

fullor & Jeff

To say there are no absolutes is completely false. Jeff I know you work college ball and there are absolutes according to: 2 hands on the dribbller, and tripping the dirbbler.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

fullor & Jeff

To say there are no absolutes is completely false. Jeff I know you work college ball and there are absolutes according to: 2 hands on the dribbller, and tripping the dirbbler.

Tripping the dribbler is a new one this year and it is being enforced by evaluators. 2 hands on the dribbler is exceptionally difficult to see, interpret, and call 100% of the time and is frankly not being enforced by evaluators unless it occurs well outside the 3-point arc.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Jeff, you are missing the point on this. I said in my 8-5 job I can see things from a distance that concern safety. If you are putting someone's life in danger, for you to dismiss it as merely my being too far away you are off base.

I realize this play is not a safety issue, but it is possible that the coach saw it better from a distance.

I get that you say there might have been a tip prior to contact with the arm.

What do you have if a ball is tipped away and is loose, a player reaches out and grabs the arm/jersey/leg of a player that is now positioned to secure the ball and is now no longer able to make a play for the ball?

I cannot speak for your job. That is another issue outside of officiating. Fouls are to be called by the official in the primary area. What looks bad is not a reason to call a foul. And if contact clearly with the ball was first, there better be more than what I saw to call a foul. On the other hand if contact with the body or arm took place first, then we have a foul. I can live with that too. My point is that the player did not get knocked down and if contact was with the arm did not cause the steal, I have got nothing. Steals and blocks often have body contact of some kind. That does not make them fouls.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

1) So you are saying that its not possible for a coach to be correct just because the are farther away or have a different angle?

2) From the video, the players arm was grabbed, and the official was too close to the play, looking back at it.

3) Are you saying that officials are alway right just because they happen to be closer to the play?

4) The official that the tirade was directed at was closer to the coach when he stormed the floor and he failed to make a call.

5)We have all seen plays that officials have failed to make calls on. It is possible that there were previous plays that merited a whistle but were not called that became part of the initial blow up.

6) Quite frankly, they should've run him when he charged the official, then when he had a second blow up after the T.

1) Nope, I'm saying that he hasn't got a good a view as the T and C on this play, and they both passed on the call. That's one of the few facts that we have, as far as I'm concerned. I'm also saying it's ridiculous to go nuts over a call that is that far away from you.

2) Possibly. In cases like this though, I really like to hear the officials' side of it before I say one way or another. I'm funny like that. Note that's officials(plural). I'd like to talk to both the T and the C and ask what they saw. And btw, note that you also can't get unanimity from the officials in this forum watching that clip as to whether a foul occurred or not. Doesn't that tell you something?

3) Nope. I've already stated that it was certainly possible that the T missed the call but that was no reason for the coach to go nutso.

4) Agree. And again, I'd like to talk to the crew before I made up my mind one way or another re: the way the situation was handled.

5) Agree ...and that's another variable missing that stops us from making a final decision re: placing any possible blame on any official.

6) Quite frankly, I agree and that's probably what I would have done.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I will not speak for JR but I agree with his position on this.

All contact is not a foul and never was intended to be. So it is really an issue to know what took place first and the nature of the contact as well. We are not going to know that on this video. But we do know that the coach is much further away from the play than the calling officials on this play.

I will not speak for Jeff but I agree with his position on this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It looks to me like the ball was stolen first and then some contact afterward. That may not be the actual case, but I have seen plays like this before and if the illegal contact did not result in the steal, I have got a play on.

And it may have looked that way to the T too. Illegal contact is always a judgment call.

Or maybe he blew the call(shrug).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

2 hands on the dribbler is exceptionally difficult to see, interpret, and call 100% of the time and is frankly not being enforced by evaluators unless it occurs well outside the 3-point arc.

Nonsense. It's one of the easiest calls you can make anywhere on the court if you're refereeing the defense.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

fullor & Jeff

To say there are no absolutes is completely false. Jeff I know you work college ball and there are absolutes according to: 2 hands on the dribbller, and tripping the dirbbler.

You misunderstood my point, sorry if it wasn't clear. There are no absolutes regarding what I saw on video, what the coach saw from the bench 60 feet away or what the 3 officials saw.

[Red_Killian]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Rich

BTW, reading the scoreboard the home team (in white) was up 3 with 20 +/- seconds to go, the coach was not too bright to get up and complain when he likely knew he had the "seatbelt."

.

As stated earlier in the thread this game was in MN. We have a few of our own non-Fed rules here in the land of 10,000 lakes. Home team wears dark, visitors wear white and 18 min halves are the most obvious. So his team was behind not ahead at the time of his ejection. The other MN poster correctly stated no real preference on regular or side panels shirts, but they do want the crew to match.

Regardless of +/- 3 pts, I totally agree coach was not too bright in getting his 2nd T and the ejection, the game was not yet decided.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

Btw, please note for the record that I also gave up taking anything that you write seriously a long, long time ago. That's why I usually don't bother responding to you.

The problem with that is the comments you were responding to were about the SECOND video and T...and as such, were completely off base.

It appeared when you came back here that you had quit being jerk to anyone who had a differenet opinion than you....basically turning a lot of decent people away from the site....but I guess I was wrong.

As for not responding to me, fine. I don't expect you to be able to keep up intellectually. Your tactics usually involve bullying and belittleing people in to submission rather than sticking to the merits....and that clearly doesn't work with me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The problem with that is the comments you were responding to were about the SECOND video and T...and as such, were completely off base.

It appeared when you came back here that had quit being jerk to anyone who had a differenet opinion than you....basically turning a lot of decent people away from the site....but I guess I was wrong.

As for not responding to me, fine. I don't expect you to be able to keep up intellectually. Your tactics usually involve bullying and and belittleing people in to submission rather than sticking to the merits....and that clearly doesn't work with me.

Forgive me for asking this, but how do you bully someone on an internet site? What can someone do, come through the internet and kick someone's azz? And how do you submit online? Is there so much pain on the keyboard that you have to back down?

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Forgive me for asking this, but how do you bully someone on an internet site? What can someone do, come through the internet and kick someone's azz? And how do you submit online? Is there so much pain on the keyboard that you have to back down?

Peace

When some new poster asks questions, even pretty basic questions, and he responds, more often than not, met with a condescending, holier than thou attitude, do you really think that is going to foster dialog, learning, camaraderie and cooperation? Do you think that they'll stick around and listen? Or go away? I'd bet he's run more people off with his approach than anything else here. As good as this site is and as useful as it can be, it will not help anyone who is ridiculed and run off.

He also can't stick to discussing the point. When someone doesn't bow to his opinion, he resorts to calling names or saying the others stupid. Such behaviors are typical of someone who can't compose a decent argument and can only rely on such tactics to divert the discussion from the merits.

[bob jenkins]

Drop it. Both of you.