Words can't describe.... this video.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You really do just to like to rip on people for the fun of it don't you?

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

There was no ripping involved. The point that I was making that the the coach on the FIRST technical was down in the corner at his end of the gym and the play occurred completely across the gym at the other end. There was nowayinhell that the coach had a good look at that play IN MY OPINION. And it was the coach that put on the show and got the "T", not the bench.

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

That's the rub............From the grainy video, etc that's what you're seeing. The official who is right there may have seen something else. That said,yes, I think he missed a foul from the limited resources I have to view it. I can't be certain. Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Reverse the situation and say the trail calls that foul from the coach's location deep in backcourt, You might have opposing coach starring in his own video.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by fullor30

That's the rub...........Neither can that coach who is 50-60 feet away.

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

Do you have a rules reference for your safety issue? I am not finding that reference in the rulebook anywhere.

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Do you have a rules reference for your safety issue? I am not finding that reference in the rulebook anywhere.

Peace

Jeff, you are missing the point on this. I said in my 8-5 job I can see things from a distance that concern safety. If you are putting someone's life in danger, for you to dismiss it as merely my being too far away you are off base.

I realize this play is not a safety issue, but it is possible that the coach saw it better from a distance.

I get that you say there might have been a tip prior to contact with the arm.

What do you have if a ball is tipped away and is loose, a player reaches out and grabs the arm/jersey/leg of a player that is now positioned to secure the ball and is now no longer able to make a play for the ball?

[icallfouls]

fullor & Jeff

To say there are no absolutes is completely false. Jeff I know you work college ball and there are absolutes according to: 2 hands on the dribbller, and tripping the dirbbler.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Jeff, you are missing the point on this. I said in my 8-5 job I can see things from a distance that concern safety. If you are putting someone's life in danger, for you to dismiss it as merely my being too far away you are off base.

I realize this play is not a safety issue, but it is possible that the coach saw it better from a distance.

I get that you say there might have been a tip prior to contact with the arm.

What do you have if a ball is tipped away and is loose, a player reaches out and grabs the arm/jersey/leg of a player that is now positioned to secure the ball and is now no longer able to make a play for the ball?

I cannot speak for your job. That is another issue outside of officiating. Fouls are to be called by the official in the primary area. What looks bad is not a reason to call a foul. And if contact clearly with the ball was first, there better be more than what I saw to call a foul. On the other hand if contact with the body or arm took place first, then we have a foul. I can live with that too. My point is that the player did not get knocked down and if contact was with the arm did not cause the steal, I have got nothing. Steals and blocks often have body contact of some kind. That does not make them fouls.

Peace

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Have you ever made a long distance call? You might have been wrong because you were too far away. Well, I guess I can't argue with that.

In my day to day job, I deal with safety issues. I can certainly see a safety concern (even a minor one) from 50 - 60 feet away. I think its possible to have a good look at something with some distance.

Distance offers perspective otherwise, as officials we would try to always be 3 feet away from all of our calls.

I call a great game from 10 rows up. For one thing, I'm focused on what I'm watching or better said only need to concentrate on view of my choice. There's no pressure, and you do get a great perspective from a distance . I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I call a great game from 10 rows up. For one thing, I'm focused on what I'm watching or better said only need to concentrate on view of my choice. There's no pressure, and you do get a great perspective from a distance . I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

Right. But look at where the trail is when the ball is poked out (hold or no hold). Is that really the best place to see that? Freeze the action. Wouldn't it have been a better look if the T had slowed down a bit and stayed out towards the division line more?

We can argue all day if it's a foul or not, but I'd rather focus on what could be done a little differently, if anything. I'm not saying that official didn't do the best he could in a high paced up and down sequence, just would rather talk about that than whether or not a grainy YouTube video shows a foul or not.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I understand what you're saying as well as Jeff. There are no absolutes. I agree with Jeff that there is the possibility the ball was poked loose and the resulting 'hold' is incidental. We just don't know.

We are all in agreement that the coach was acting like a petulant child.

Yes that is my point.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

The grainy video shows the defense grabbing the arm of the offense. Even I can see it from my computer screen from my remote location.

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me get this straight from you. Grabbing the arm is always a foul?

Do you have a rules reference for that ruling?

Peace

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

Grabbing the arm = hold. The hold was on the right forearm of the offensive player and resulted in a possession consequence (advantage not intended by rule) of white losing the ball.

Never said that grabbing (holding) is always a foul. Those are your words. By that logic nothing is a foul.

I understand where everyone is coming from.

But I see what Jeff's saying, too. If the ball was poked out cleanly and there's a subsequent grab of the arm, it may or may not be a foul.

To me, it looked (on the grainy video) that the arm grab led to the loss of possession, which would be a foul. And the official was in a bad place to see it. Happens. The meltdown that resulted is inexcusable, regardless.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

But I see what Jeff's saying, too. If the ball was poked out cleanly and there's a subsequent grab of the arm, it may or may not be a foul.

To me, it looked (on the grainy video) that the arm grab led to the loss of possession, which would be a foul. And the official was in a bad place to see it. Happens. The meltdown that resulted is inexcusable, regardless.

Rich

I have agreed with everything you said. I also said I understand everyone's points.

Arm grab resulted in loss of possession. The official was in a bad place. I previously stated that the coach should've gotten the boot for his second outburst that involved shoving players, throwing clipboard/notebook, rather than waiting until the end of the game. BTW, reading the scoreboard the home team (in white) was up 3 with 20 +/- seconds to go, the coach was not too bright to get up and complain when he likely knew he had the "seatbelt."

My contention is that just because the distance by the coach is greater than that of the officials is not in itself a reason to dismiss the belief that the coach has a legitimate complaint. How he decided to express his complaint is another issue.