Sub not in game for disqualified player

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

The officials could have done a better job of bringing him out earlier, perhaps.

Maybe they could have gone with RPP on the free throw since he didn't have his players on blocks as required; but this isn't an actual timeout, so that wouldn't work.

All you'd likely have is the officials informing the coach that he needs to have his players on the floor now, and it looks like he would have complied. Not much to call, really.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

Fair enough, but I'd have to be pretty sure the coach was intending to do this. If A6 (the sub) is sitting on the bench at this point, I'd probably pull the trigger. I'm assuming, however, that 6 players went out there; leading me to believe that A5 lost track of the situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

[Smitty]

This has little to do with the OP but what level of basketball was this? I'm just curious.

Maybe I missed it, but perhaps the referee only notified the coach and not the player that he had 5 fouls. Every time I have notified a player that they have 5 fouls after notifying the coach and then getting the 20 seconds started, the player leaves the court on their own. If the player did not realize it was their 5th foul, perhaps that's why they came back on the floor. I'm not justifying anything - just might be a reason why he stayed on the court.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

We don't know if A1 was informed of his fifth foul. As long as the sub reported and came onto the court as a player, I've got no T.

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's .

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Adam]

I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

That small window of subjectivity granted by the rule book is what the official would have to fall back on. Assuming the official knows that rule to the letter, he could have T'ed up Team A's coach and explained very clearly that by sending in a DQ'ed player, he was deliberately circumventing the rules. Or the official could do what mine did and just say, "the error has been detected, the ball isn't yet live, the player has been pulled out of the game, let's keep playing."

As Team B's coach, if I could do it over again, I would ask the official in my nicest voice if he noticed the deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules that I was witnessing from Team A's coach. Seriously, I do believe this is a gray area question that you could have to be present in order to call correctly.

Thanks for your help again.

[just another ref]

Was the sub on the floor or not?