Sub not in game for disqualified player

[CoachJW]

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.

[tjones1]

10.5.2 Situation B
A1 has been disqualified from the game for committing his/her fifth foul or a flagrant foul. The coach of Team A is notified and then the official instructs the timer to begin the replacement period. The player is then notified of the disqualification. The coach of Team A rises from the bench and: (a) talks until the sounding of the 5-second warning horn with four remaining players who have gathered near the boundary; (b) immediately sends A6 to the table to report in. The coach then wishes to gather the players at the sideline for a conference; or (c) sends A6 towards the table but the timer indicates the 20 seconds have expired before A6 get there.

RULING: Legal in (a), as long as the substitute reports in during the next 15 seconds. In (b), play will resume as soon as A6 has reported to the scorer. In (c), a technical foul is charged directly to the coach.

[CoachJW]

I believe that is relevant to this question. However, if the disqualified player does not leave the court after the 20-second replacement period, how would you handle it?

[just another ref]

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

[Kelvin green]

My two cents...

As a referee you need too stand there and tell coach to bring sub . When the horn off tell the coach to bring the sub, by the time the 20 is done he brings the sub. Although by rule what is described in the OP is a T, I think it sounds like poor game mgt ...

[CoachJW]

When the whole thing happened, I figured that the best evidence in my case (which was to convince the official that it should be a T) would be that the sub was not at the table within the 20 seconds. I asked for clarification on that, and the official had to go back to the table to ask them. The answer I got was "Coach, they (the table) said that the sub had reported on time." I was coaching the host school, so I didn't have a lot to say back to that.

However, I think you're right in that it was poor management by the officials in putting themselves in a position to ask the table that question. And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

The disqualified player was not just slow to exit...he broke the huddle with his teammates and started lining up for the FT. I was like nobody told him in the huddle, "We're huddling like this because you fouled out, Johnny. That means you don't get to go back on the floor."

[just another ref]

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

[Nevadaref]

The correct call is a T. There cannot be a DOG warning issued as this is not one of the four specific things for which a team can receive one.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

The officials could have done a better job of bringing him out earlier, perhaps.

Maybe they could have gone with RPP on the free throw since he didn't have his players on blocks as required; but this isn't an actual timeout, so that wouldn't work.

All you'd likely have is the officials informing the coach that he needs to have his players on the floor now, and it looks like he would have complied. Not much to call, really.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

That is interesting. Since we aren't very good, I'm usually in the opposite position of having my OWN players foul out late in games, and thus have become an expert on the 20-second replacement period and using it like a miniature timeout (which I know the rules are trying to discourage). Last week I had an official breathing down my neck 3 feet away as I was huddling my kids for, at most, 10 seconds. He was interrupting me and saying, "Coach, I don't want to T you up, get your sub in! Get your sub in! You only have 10 seconds coach, let's go, let's go!" He wasn't very professional to say the least, and I know for sure that if my DQ'ed player had stayed on the floor after my huddle, he would have T'ed me up.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[Adam]

I have the clock set, and I don't say a word to the coach after that. The horn is good enough, and the coach knows the consequences. Most times here, they just send the sub to the table. We only use the clock 10% of the time, at most.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

Fair enough, but I'd have to be pretty sure the coach was intending to do this. If A6 (the sub) is sitting on the bench at this point, I'd probably pull the trigger. I'm assuming, however, that 6 players went out there; leading me to believe that A5 lost track of the situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.