Sub not in game for disqualified player

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is exactly what the NFHS is striving to prevent. You are part of the problem if you are failing to administer the game properly as an official. The coach should have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds each and every time.

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

Yeah, but I think that he is also trying to justify the lack of imposing a penalty upon the team with the fouled-out player being late with their substitution by stating that all is equal because the opposing coach can also talk with his players during this time.
That's not the point of the 20-second limit nor is it how the NFHS wants this to work. The idea is to keep the game moving.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yeah, but I think that he is also trying to justify the lack of imposing a penalty upon the team with the fouled-out player being late with their substitution by stating that all is equal because the opposing coach can also talk with his players during this time.
That's not the point of the 20-second limit nor is it how the NFHS wants this to work. The idea is to keep the game moving.

I agree. In the OP, though, the sub reported prior to the horn. Now, it's up to the official to get the game going, as they broke their "huddle" as soon as the horn sounded.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I agree. In the OP, though, the sub reported prior to the horn. Now, it's up to the official to get the game going, as they broke their "huddle" as soon as the horn sounded.

Yep, and if we ask why the officials can't get the game going again at this point, then we see very clearly that it is because there is a team member out there on the court who shouldn't be, even after being subbed for, and this person is the one who is preventing the ball from being promptly made live. Hence my advocating a T under 10-3-5a.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, and if we ask why the officials can't get the game going again at this point, then we see very clearly that it is because there is a team member out there on the court who shouldn't be, even after being subbed for, and this person is the one who is preventing the ball from being promptly made live. Hence my advocating a T under 10-3-5a.

Is your take on this different in the case of the disqualification, or do you advocate a T every time subs come in and you count 6 on the floor as you prepare to put the ball in play?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is your take on this different in the case of the disqualification, or do you advocate a T every time subs come in and you count 6 on the floor as you prepare to put the ball in play?

It is different in the case of a disqualification because of the official notification and 20-second replacement interval which have just taken place. There shouldn't be any confusion about this individual's right to be on the court at this point. During a substitution process or following a time-out confusion about which five should be out there is certainly possible.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It is different in the case of a disqualification because of the official notification and 20-second replacement interval which have just taken place. There shouldn't be any confusion about this individual's right to be on the court at this point. During a substitution process or following a time-out confusion about which five should be out there is certainly possible.

Agreed, there shouldn't be. But apparently in the OP there was. I find it hard to call a T based on confusion if I have any opportunity not to do so.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

Shaqs is exactly right, here. My point is that as a coach of the opposing team, I know that most coaches want to use as much of the 20 seconds as they can. As a COACH, I am less concerned about how quickly the OFFICIALS get the game going -- the longer the delay allowed by the OFFICIALS the longer my mini-time out. My point is that rather than worrying about how long the other coach is taking and trying to argue with the OFFICIAL, I quietly go about coaching my team.

As an OFFICIAL, I always try to follow the procedures in an efficient manner thus keeping the game moving. While the coach in the OP may have failed to describe EVERYTHING, there were some things missing.

For example, EXACTLY when was the coach notified of the disqualification? When was the timer notified to start the 20 second clock? When was the disqualified player notified by one of the officials?

I know that Nevada is all ready to issue a "T" here, but the OP NEVER stated that the PLAYER was notified of the disqualification -- this is a REQUIREMENT per our procedures.

As an official, I want to keep the game moving. The best and most effective way to do that is to QUICKLY implement the procedures: notify the coach IMMEDIATELY after the scorer informs the official that the player has five fouls (I usually know when I, or one of my partners, calls a fifth foul on a player BEFORE the notification), tell the timer to start the clock (and remind about the warning horn in five seconds), make sure that the PLAYER knows that he has committed his fifth foul AND be ready to beckon the substitute at the table BEFORE the second horn.

While the purpose of the 20 second rule is to keep the game moving, I believe that it is inappropriate for a referee to RUSH the process beyond what the rules allow. I will typically REMIND the coach that he must have a sub at the table within 20 seconds. I will then follow up at the warning horn to indicate first horn, a sub must be ready at the table BEFORE the second horn. I will then go to an area near the scorer's table to prepare to wave the sub onto the floor to get the game moving, again.

I think that it is inappropriate for an OFFICIAL to talk through the entire 20 seconds.