Sub not in game for disqualified player

[CoachJW]

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.

[tjones1]

10.5.2 Situation B
A1 has been disqualified from the game for committing his/her fifth foul or a flagrant foul. The coach of Team A is notified and then the official instructs the timer to begin the replacement period. The player is then notified of the disqualification. The coach of Team A rises from the bench and: (a) talks until the sounding of the 5-second warning horn with four remaining players who have gathered near the boundary; (b) immediately sends A6 to the table to report in. The coach then wishes to gather the players at the sideline for a conference; or (c) sends A6 towards the table but the timer indicates the 20 seconds have expired before A6 get there.

RULING: Legal in (a), as long as the substitute reports in during the next 15 seconds. In (b), play will resume as soon as A6 has reported to the scorer. In (c), a technical foul is charged directly to the coach.

[CoachJW]

I believe that is relevant to this question. However, if the disqualified player does not leave the court after the 20-second replacement period, how would you handle it?

[just another ref]

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

[Kelvin green]

My two cents...

As a referee you need too stand there and tell coach to bring sub . When the horn off tell the coach to bring the sub, by the time the 20 is done he brings the sub. Although by rule what is described in the OP is a T, I think it sounds like poor game mgt ...

[CoachJW]

When the whole thing happened, I figured that the best evidence in my case (which was to convince the official that it should be a T) would be that the sub was not at the table within the 20 seconds. I asked for clarification on that, and the official had to go back to the table to ask them. The answer I got was "Coach, they (the table) said that the sub had reported on time." I was coaching the host school, so I didn't have a lot to say back to that.

However, I think you're right in that it was poor management by the officials in putting themselves in a position to ask the table that question. And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

The disqualified player was not just slow to exit...he broke the huddle with his teammates and started lining up for the FT. I was like nobody told him in the huddle, "We're huddling like this because you fouled out, Johnny. That means you don't get to go back on the floor."

[just another ref]

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.

Most of the time I see this happen the player taps or gives the ball to his opponent. If a hold of the ball allows a press to be set up or if the tap of the ball is away from the inbounding team or onto the floor, then that is a delay in my mind and worthy of a warning. The other stuff is good sportsmanship in my mind and as long as there is no delay and the other team is not placed at a disadvantage, the game is moving on.

[Adam]

With the after basket activity, if it actually causes a delay (the purpose of the rule), then I'll call the DOG. If not, I'll verbally tell the kids to leave it alone.

I have had a partner not make a call that I later found out should have been made when the ball went into the corner. I was C, he was L on the shot. T and I were talking later, and she had a good view but passed on it as it wasn't her call.

I can see how this would be frustrating.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul.

What happened in here??

Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.

... whether the officials involved did the complete 'DQ'd player do-see-do'?

Non-calling official:
1. informs head coach of disqualification of player,
2. informs the timer to begin a 20-second interval,
3. informs the DQ'd player of their disqualification.

Did either the calling or non-calling official do the above?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

A1 commits an and-1 foul. Team B is at the FT line to shoot the one free throw, players are lined up. The table informs the reporting official that it was A1's fifth personal foul. Team A's coach calls his players over to talk during the 20 seconds that he has at his disposal to get his sub in the game. The 20 seconds is up, they break the huddle, and player A1 is still on the court, walking to the other end of the court to line up for the free throw.
I was Team B's coach, so I noticed he was still on the court and asked the table, "Didn't #15 foul out?" and they said yes. At that point, Team A's coach noticed that he was still on the court and got him to come back to the sideline. The officials saw this whole thing and didn't do anything, so I protested that Team A should be assessed a T or at least a DOG warning (and they had been catching the ball after it went through the net all night, and that was never called either) since they had an ineligible player on the floor after the 20 seconds. It seemed pretty clear-cut to me, and one of the officials has a great reputation locally and usually calls a pretty good game.

I didn't make a huge stink (with one T in seven years of coaching, I'm generally mild-mannered), but I wondered if people on this board would have handled it differently.

As an aside, the issue of the DOG warning on a made basket/scoring team catches the ball after it goes through the net seems inconsistent with our local referees. I'm wondering if there are guys out there who will only call that if the player catches it and throws it off to the side, taps it, etc, or if you call it any time they even touch it. Thanks and I always appreciate the responses and information I can get from the officials on the board.

Coach,
The 20 second count does NOT start until the official asks for the 20 second clock count for the DQed player.

You did not indicate in your post that the official notified the coach of the disqualification. If the coach happens to KNOW that this is the 5th foul on one of his players, he could possibly get 25 or so seconds since the 20 second period does not START until AFTER the coach has been informed of the disqualification AND the official has indicated that the 20 second timer is to start. While most HS timers are very good at the 15 second warning horn and the timing of the ready to play horn, many are NOT familiar with the 20 second disqualification clock. If the official happened to fail to notify the timer to start the 20 second timer, an additional delay could have resulted here.

You also did not indicate that an official notified the disqualified player that he was disqualified. Some players HOPE that the scorer may have made a mistake and will act as though the foul is NOT his 5th foul. Since the FTs would have been on the opposite end of the court from the bench, this combination of
1. an alert coach quickly meeting with players as soon as the whistle stopped play,
2. a player HOPING that he did not foul out,
3. a player perhaps not notified immediately by the official that he had committed his 5th foul (in some cases, it is not a matter of hope as much as lack of paying attention),
4. a timer not intimately familiar with the 20 second clock (although he should have been based on your team's previous DQ's),
and
5. a referee not in a huge hurry to get the game going (sounds like you may have had Nevadaref's brother in at least one of your prior games)

can lead to a break in the action of a bit more than 20 seconds. Hardly something worth getting upset about, in my opinion, as a coach.

REMEMBER: YOU, as the coach of the opposing team, are also allowed to use this 20 second period as a "mini timeout" AND YOU don't have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

thus have become an expert on the 20-second replacement period and using it like a miniature timeout (which I know the rules are trying to discourage).

Very true. Actually was an NFHS POE a couple of seasons ago, and various states have experimented with different ideas to speed up this process.

Originally Posted by CoachJW

Last week I had an official breathing down my neck 3 feet away as I was huddling my kids for, at most, 10 seconds. He was interrupting me and saying, "Coach, I don't want to T you up, get your sub in! Get your sub in! You only have 10 seconds coach, let's go, let's go!" He wasn't very professional to say the least, and I know for sure that if my DQ'ed player had stayed on the floor after my huddle, he would have T'ed me up.

You may wish to look at this from the official's point of view. He is doing what he is supposed to by encouraging you to make sure that your sub is there in time. Would you rather that he not a say a single word to you, and then issue a T as soon as that horn sounds, while your sub is on the way to the table to report? Coaches cannot ever be pleased by the officials, and this is a d@mned if you do, d@mned if you don't situation.

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

(sounds like you may have had Nevadaref's brother in at least one of your prior games)

How do you know it wasn't actually me?

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

REMEMBER: YOU, as the coach of the opposing team, are also allowed to use this 20 second period as a "mini timeout" AND YOU don't have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds.

This is exactly what the NFHS is striving to prevent. You are part of the problem if you are failing to administer the game properly as an official. The coach should have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds each and every time.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This is exactly what the NFHS is striving to prevent. You are part of the problem if you are failing to administer the game properly as an official. The coach should have to worry about getting a sub to the table in the allotted 20 seconds each and every time.

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nevada, I think he's saying when a player is disqualified, the opposing coach can also use that time for a de facto TO, without the responsibility of sending a sub to the table.

Yeah, but I think that he is also trying to justify the lack of imposing a penalty upon the team with the fouled-out player being late with their substitution by stating that all is equal because the opposing coach can also talk with his players during this time.
That's not the point of the 20-second limit nor is it how the NFHS wants this to work. The idea is to keep the game moving.