Disqualified Player

ThickSkin · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 13, 2006, 11:58pm

Late in the fourth quarter A1 takes the ball to the basket. I am lead and before A1 can get to the basket to shoot, I see B1 reach in and grab A1 on the arm. Tweet... Foul! As I make my way to the table B1 throws her arms in the air and says, "that is terrible!" Tweet...Technical foul! Earlier in the game she did the same thing and I told her that was enough. Long story short... when does B1 become bench personnel?

My thinking is that once she gets her 5th, she is a disqualified player. So, I told the coach, "B1 committed a personal foul as her fifth and the T will be charged indirectly to the bench which means you have lost your box." He says "OK" After the game my partner tells me that it isn't indirect until you notify the coach that it is B1's 5th. O, yeah... before I even get to the bench, B coach is telling me that the common foul was on B2... so obviously he knew that B1 had four personal fouls to begin with. Was this situation handled correctly? Do you have a rule citation for the case book or is this in the manual? It is pretty frustrating because up until this point we had a very good game.

How would you have handled this situation?

Snake~eyes · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 12:05am

I agree with your partner read 4-14-2

ThickSkin · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 12:13am

Here is where my brain is (probably not right but this is where I am... I haven't read 4-14-2 yet either so bear with me)

Before I even got to the table to report the personal foul on B1, the coach was telling me it was on B2. Now let's think about this. If the coach knows B1 has 4 fouls and he clearly saw her raise her hands and tell me "that is terrible" and then he clearly saw me give her a T, what does it matter if the foul is on B2 or B1? Him trying to get me to give the foul to B2 in my mind tells me that he knows if I give the foul to B1, she has fouled out. Do I still need to verbally communicate to him "that's 5?"

I am not arguing one way or the other. This was simply my train of thought as this whole situation was unfolding.

Anybody else out there have an opinion or facts?

Snake~eyes · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 12:52am

Quote:

Originally posted by ThickSkin
Here is where my brain is (probably not right but this is where I am... I haven't read 4-14-2 yet either so bear with me)

Before I even got to the table to report the personal foul on B1, the coach was telling me it was on B2. Now let's think about this. If the coach knows B1 has 4 fouls and he clearly saw her raise her hands and tell me "that is terrible" and then he clearly saw me give her a T, what does it matter if the foul is on B2 or B1? Him trying to get me to give the foul to B2 in my mind tells me that he knows if I give the foul to B1, she has fouled out. Do I still need to verbally communicate to him "that's 5?"

I am not arguing one way or the other. This was simply my train of thought as this whole situation was unfolding.

Anybody else out there have an opinion or facts?

Don't give the coach so much credit, they just aren't that smart and cannot think that far ahead. He was just trying to get his star out of a foul.

As for telling the coach, yes you have to tell the coach. If you do not tell the coach then the player will never become bench personell and could just stay in the game. You telling the coach "that's 5" is part of the adminstration of a player fouling out.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 01:16am

Quote:

Originally posted by ThickSkin
Here is where my brain is (probably not right but this is where I am... I haven't read 4-14-2 yet either so bear with me)

Before I even got to the table to report the personal foul on B1, the coach was telling me it was on B2. Now let's think about this. If the coach knows B1 has 4 fouls and he clearly saw her raise her hands and tell me "that is terrible" and then he clearly saw me give her a T, what does it matter if the foul is on B2 or B1? Him trying to get me to give the foul to B2 in my mind tells me that he knows if I give the foul to B1, she has fouled out. Do I still need to verbally communicate to him "that's 5?"

I am not arguing one way or the other. This was simply my train of thought as this whole situation was unfolding.

Anybody else out there have an opinion or facts?

It makes no difference. By rule, the DQ'ed player does not become bench personnel until you tell the coach that B1 is DQ'ed. You can cut it anyway you like it but it can't be an indirect until that happens.

cdaref · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 05:11am

I really want to encourage people if they have a question to go to their rule books. Try to find it. DQ procedure has been a hot topic recently. Heck, it should be pregamed. Or at worst discussed at half time.

I think it is an essential skill to know how to look this stuff up. Literally every game I have something come up that after the game I go and confirm and work through the rule.

I'm not saying this because I dont want people to discuss things. Discussion is great and is to be encouraged. But do yourself a favor and use those situations to sit down with the rule book and find the rule. Get into the habit of looking things up.

I say this because to me that is really how things stick in my mind. Reading the rule is great, but when I apply it in a situation that I have personally handled that really drives it home. It is far better than just asking for the answer and getting it. You learn it better if you go find it.

Just a suggestion that learning the skill of looking it up and thinking it through is a good thing.

Not trying to be a tool.

And in this instance the rule is clear and basic. And it isnt really an interpretation thing. They just arent bench personell until coach is informed. No grey area. And, honestly, its a rule (or perhaps more appropriately a procedure) you and your partner need to have reviewed. Sounds like you guys might need to really up the content of your pregame. A good pregame is just so key.

Oh, and dont skimp on reviewing the official's manual too. It is a gold mine.

[off soapbox, with appologies to all offended

]

[Edited by cdaref on Jan 14th, 2006 at 05:15 AM]

ThickSkin · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 09:40am

No offense taken. I agree with you. I used to take my books to all games I worked but recently I have not. Don't know why... just lazy. It was just a situation that I got myself in to and I knew I was going to have a hard time sleeping so I wanted to get an opinion or two before going to bed.

What could I have done differently? Wait to assess the Technical on B1? Does it matter when you report it i.e. B1 hold... the table tells me that's 5. I tell the coach, "coach that is 5." Now she is bench personnel. I report the T to the table now is that indirect? It seems like I would just be looking for trouble. I don't know either way... Lesson learned one way or the other.

bob jenkins · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 09:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by ThickSkin
No offense taken. I agree with you. I used to take my books to all games I worked but recently I have not. Don't know why... just lazy. It was just a situation that I got myself in to and I knew I was going to have a hard time sleeping so I wanted to get an opinion or two before going to bed.

What could I have done differently? Wait to assess the Technical on B1? Does it matter when you report it i.e. B1 hold... the table tells me that's 5. I tell the coach, "coach that is 5." Now she is bench personnel. I report the T to the table now is that indirect? It seems like I would just be looking for trouble. I don't know either way... Lesson learned one way or the other.

THat wouldn't make any difference. It's a T when the player commits the act -- not when it's reported.

cdaref · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 11:58am

Thanks for being a good sport about my comments. It was late when I posted.

I agree with prior post. You cant delay to call the T. The question is that status of the player at the time of the "offense". S/he was not bench personnell when you called the T.

ThickSkin · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 12:42pm

Yeah, after going through and refreshing my memory, clearing the cob webs, getting rid of the brain fart... whatever you want to call it, I can see AND UNDERSTAND why I handled the situation incorrectly.

Thanks again for the help. I appreciate it!

cdaref · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 15, 2006, 12:14am

Dont worry. We all brain fart. Or at least I do anyway. In a double header today I lost track of a shooter on a foul call and then a coach took a time out. Luckily, my partner and I pregamed keeping track of the shooter, so he had it (thus covering up my brain fart). -pffffft-