Sub not in game for disqualified player

[just another ref]

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

[Kelvin green]

My two cents...

As a referee you need too stand there and tell coach to bring sub . When the horn off tell the coach to bring the sub, by the time the 20 is done he brings the sub. Although by rule what is described in the OP is a T, I think it sounds like poor game mgt ...

[CoachJW]

When the whole thing happened, I figured that the best evidence in my case (which was to convince the official that it should be a T) would be that the sub was not at the table within the 20 seconds. I asked for clarification on that, and the official had to go back to the table to ask them. The answer I got was "Coach, they (the table) said that the sub had reported on time." I was coaching the host school, so I didn't have a lot to say back to that.

However, I think you're right in that it was poor management by the officials in putting themselves in a position to ask the table that question. And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachJW

And when the disqualified player was still on the court after the 20 seconds, that seems like at DOG warning at least.

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

The officials could have done a better job of bringing him out earlier, perhaps.

Maybe they could have gone with RPP on the free throw since he didn't have his players on blocks as required; but this isn't an actual timeout, so that wouldn't work.

All you'd likely have is the officials informing the coach that he needs to have his players on the floor now, and it looks like he would have complied. Not much to call, really.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No DOG here, coach. I'm not sure what the T would be for, either. If the sub reported on time, the coach hasn't broken the rule.

It sounds like they broke their huddle with 6, but we never T for that. We count the players and send one back. I'm not sure what rule could be used for a T here.

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

Fair enough, but I'd have to be pretty sure the coach was intending to do this. If A6 (the sub) is sitting on the bench at this point, I'd probably pull the trigger. I'm assuming, however, that 6 players went out there; leading me to believe that A5 lost track of the situation.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

That small window of subjectivity granted by the rule book is what the official would have to fall back on. Assuming the official knows that rule to the letter, he could have T'ed up Team A's coach and explained very clearly that by sending in a DQ'ed player, he was deliberately circumventing the rules. Or the official could do what mine did and just say, "the error has been detected, the ball isn't yet live, the player has been pulled out of the game, let's keep playing."

As Team B's coach, if I could do it over again, I would ask the official in my nicest voice if he noticed the deliberate attempt to circumvent the rules that I was witnessing from Team A's coach. Seriously, I do believe this is a gray area question that you could have to be present in order to call correctly.

Thanks for your help again.

[just another ref]

Was the sub on the floor or not?

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Are you saying that no sub reported, or that the sub did report but the disqualified player was slow to exit?

The disqualified player was not just slow to exit...he broke the huddle with his teammates and started lining up for the FT. I was like nobody told him in the huddle, "We're huddling like this because you fouled out, Johnny. That means you don't get to go back on the floor."

[just another ref]

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

[Nevadaref]

The correct call is a T. There cannot be a DOG warning issued as this is not one of the four specific things for which a team can receive one.

[CoachJW]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the sub reported in time, and the officials did not put the ball in play while A1 was still on the floor, I don't think you can call a T here.

That is interesting. Since we aren't very good, I'm usually in the opposite position of having my OWN players foul out late in games, and thus have become an expert on the 20-second replacement period and using it like a miniature timeout (which I know the rules are trying to discourage). Last week I had an official breathing down my neck 3 feet away as I was huddling my kids for, at most, 10 seconds. He was interrupting me and saying, "Coach, I don't want to T you up, get your sub in! Get your sub in! You only have 10 seconds coach, let's go, let's go!" He wasn't very professional to say the least, and I know for sure that if my DQ'ed player had stayed on the floor after my huddle, he would have T'ed me up.

[Adam]

I have the clock set, and I don't say a word to the coach after that. The horn is good enough, and the coach knows the consequences. Most times here, they just send the sub to the table. We only use the clock 10% of the time, at most.