Sub not in game for disqualified player

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

10.5.3 SITUATION: A5 has just received his/her fifth foul of the game. A5 (a) is
erroneously permitted to remain in the game for another two minutes before the
scorer realizes the mistake; or (b) leaves the game after the coach is notified of
the disqualification. At the intermission between the third and fourth quarter, A5
reports as a substitute and subsequently enters the game. RULING: In (a), as
soon as the error is discovered, the player is removed from the game, no penalties
are assessed. In (b), A5 will not actually "participate" until the ball becomes
live. If detected prior to the ball becoming live, A5 would be directed to the bench
and no penalty assessed unless the official deemed it was a deliberate attempt to
circumvent the rules. If detected after the ball becomes live, it is a technical foul
charged directly to the head coach. The player is immediately removed from the
game and Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball. (2-11-5 Note 2)

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What about the sub who has already checked in? Sounds to me like there were 6 on the floor. If so, this case doesn't fit the OP.

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

No, the case play doesn't fit the OP. In fact, they re two completely different scenarios.

Before the ball is live, you make sure the DQ'ed player has left the floor. It's nothing if that is done.

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

[Smitty]

This has little to do with the OP but what level of basketball was this? I'm just curious.

Maybe I missed it, but perhaps the referee only notified the coach and not the player that he had 5 fouls. Every time I have notified a player that they have 5 fouls after notifying the coach and then getting the 20 seconds started, the player leaves the court on their own. If the player did not realize it was their 5th foul, perhaps that's why they came back on the floor. I'm not justifying anything - just might be a reason why he stayed on the court.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

Of course, the Head Coach would earn an indirect T as well since he has already been notified of the disqualification and team member is now bench personnel.

In short, I agree with the coach who posted the OP. T was warranted here. The kid knows that he shouldn't be out there. The mechanic is to notify the coach, start the 20 second timer, and then notify the player. I'm not waiting around for him to leave.

10-3-5a: A player shall not:. . . Delay the game by acts such as:
a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in
play.

We don't know if A1 was informed of his fifth foul. As long as the sub reported and came onto the court as a player, I've got no T.

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

It sounds to me much more like an innocent mistake than a deliberate attempt to circumvent the rule. You say A1 knows he's done. I've seen plenty of kids who don't always realize situations the rest of us see as common knowledge.

Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's .

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

The timer just did administer a 20-second replacement period. What do you think that was for? Not only does the Head Coach have to send a sub to the table, but logically, the team member with five fouls needs to depart during this time.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.

This isn't a time-out. The NFHS has made that point crystal clear. So only the Head Coach should be standing in the bench area and the remaining four players should remain on the court during the process. There shouldn't be any need to wait more than that 20 seconds.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Exactly. But you'll always have those with itchy trigger fingers who want to take something out of the rule book, conform it to a situation it doesn't apply to, and whack a kid. It's .

So how long do you propose giving this team to have their disqualified player depart?
I prefer to stick with the 20 seconds that is provided in the rules book. If they go over that, then they are delaying the resumption of the game and a T is justified and supported by the rules. 10-3-5a is in the book exactly for this type of situation.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The timer just did administer a 20-second replacement period. What do you think that was for? Not only does the Head Coach have to send a sub to the table, but logically, the team member with five fouls needs to depart during this time.

So how long do you propose giving this team to have their disqualified player depart?

I prefer to stick with the 20 seconds that is provided in the rules book. If they go over that, then they are delaying the resumption of the game and a T is justified and supported by the rules. 10-3-5a is in the book exactly for this type of situation.

The coach has 20 seconds to replace the player with a sub. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. It would seem to me that if he didn't a T would have been called. Since it wasn't, evidently the sub entered.

The official must inform the player that he has fouled out. Did he do that? I don't think it's been addressed. Snce the player came back on to the floor, it would seem he was not informed. Otherwise, I don't think he's coming back out.

Maybe the kid's parent came out on the floor. That would give you a chance to call two T's!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And if that is taking an excessive amount of time, which I would define as more than the allotted 20 seconds, then invoke 10-3-5a and whack him.

So since the timer isn't timing 20 seconds at this point, you start a visibile 20 second count and if you don't think he's getting off the floor fast enough, you whack him?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Adam]

I think Nevada is saying he's going to issue the T just as soon as the 20 second horn goes off if the team isn't on the court and ready; which isn't the rule, but.... I guess.