FIBA EXAM Question

[SmokeEater]

I am trying to wrap my head around a question in the FIBA rules exam presented by CABO this year. I thought I would post it here and allow for some discussion. You don't have to agree or disagree with the answer jsut looking to discuss.

Q: A1 and B1 commit a double foul. B1's foul is judged as disqualifying. Shall free throws be awarded to A1? Y or N (Answer is N)

From the exam administrator I received the following regarding the logic.
In FIBA rules all DOuble fouls cancel and no free throws shall be awarded. Art 35.2

This is how I will administer should the situation ever come up by the way.

Now here is my problem in the learning process. The question (stupid if you ask me) does not say both fouls are equal and in FIBA a disqualifying foul Art 37 (flagrantly unsproting action) has a different penalty than a personal foul. So, I can understand cancelling equal penalties but this was not the case as I understand the question. Also Art 42.2.2 supports the cancelling of equal penalties and then administering what is left over.

Dang what am I missing in this.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I am trying to wrap my head around a question in the FIBA rules exam presented by CABO this year. I thought I would post it here and allow for some discussion. You don't have to agree or disagree with the answer jsut looking to discuss.

Q: A1 and B1 commit a double foul. B1's foul is judged as disqualifying. Shall free throws be awarded to A1? Y or N (Answer is N)

From the exam administrator I received the following regarding the logic.
In FIBA rules all DOuble fouls cancel and no free throws shall be awarded. Art 35.2

This is how I will administer should the situation ever come up by the way.

Now here is my problem in the learning process. The question (stupid if you ask me) does not say both fouls are equal and in FIBA a disqualifying foul Art 37 (flagrantly unsproting action) has a different penalty than a personal foul. So, I can understand cancelling equal penalties but this was not the case as I understand the question. Also Art 42.2.2 supports the cancelling of equal penalties and then administering what is left over.

Dang what am I missing in this.

It's the same in FED and NCAA -- if one foul of a double foul is flagrant, or intentional, the fouls still offset.

And, I assume it's the same as a double foul when one team is in the bonus (in FIBA) -- that team doesn't get to shoot FTs, play is just resumed (at POI in FED and NCAA).

[jallen]

this is a good question and does happen. In Fiba equal gravity fouls cancel. Double fouls go back to the team in control as in the case of most double fouls. However, in this case one foul is disqualifying so the other team shall have the ball at center for a throw in and can use both courts to inbound the ball. Questions may seem stupid until the time they happen and then what?
last night we called an unsportsman foul on team A followed by two Techs on Team B. what cancels here?

[jallen]

FIBA does not use POI

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by jallen

this is a good question and does happen. In Fiba equal gravity fouls cancel. Double fouls go back to the team in control as in the case of most double fouls. However, in this case one foul is disqualifying so the other team shall have the ball at center for a throw in and can use both courts to inbound the ball. Questions may seem stupid until the time they happen and then what?
last night we called an unsportsman foul on team A followed by two Techs on Team B. what cancels here?

It's not correct to say that "equal gravity fouls cancel", rather than "equal penalties cancel". Consider the following case: team A has committed five fouls in the period; B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting; while the try is in the air, A2 fouls B2 going for position at the rebound; the ball enters the basket. Now, the two fouls are of the same gravity (both are common fouls), but the penalties are different: 1 FT for A1 and two FT for B2. The penalties are administered in the order of occurrence of the infractions.

Almost the same would happen if both fouls are judged unsportsmanlike (intentional, in Fed's language), but the ball possession for team A would be lost: 1 FT for A1, two FT for B2 and possession for B at the division line.

On the other hand, a double foul is when two players commit a foul against each other at approximately the same time. It doesn't matter the kind of foul: the play is resumed at the POI (to use Fed's language). For example, while B1 pushes A1 (player in control of the ball), A1 strikes B1 in the face with an elbow: double foul, but A1's foul is probably disqualifying (flagrant, in Fed's language). Play is resumed with a throw-in for team A.

It would be very different if A1 strikes B1 after the pushing foul. The two fouls are not at the same time any more and so a different rule comes into play: penalties do not cancel and they are administered in order of occurrence. If team B is in team penalty situation (after the fourth foul in a period), the substitute of A1 would shoot two FT and B1 would shoot two FT followed by possession for team B at the division line.

In the case you are presenting, it really doesn't matter what penalties cancel: the game is resumed with two FT (any player may shoot them) and possession for team A.

There is a case when this matters: B1 commits a U foul on A1; team A's coach uses profanity against B1 and gets a T; team B's coach complains fiercely to an official and gets a T. What penalties cancel? Penalties are cancelled in order of occurrence, so the only penalty remaining is for the T on B's coach: any player of team A may shoot the free throws (not necessarily A1, as one may think at first).

Ciao

[Ref_in_Alberta]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I am trying to wrap my head around a question in the FIBA rules exam presented by CABO this year. I thought I would post it here and allow for some discussion. You don't have to agree or disagree with the answer jsut looking to discuss.

Q: A1 and B1 commit a double foul. B1's foul is judged as disqualifying. Shall free throws be awarded to A1? Y or N (Answer is N)

From the exam administrator I received the following regarding the logic.
In FIBA rules all DOuble fouls cancel and no free throws shall be awarded. Art 35.2

This is how I will administer should the situation ever come up by the way.

Now here is my problem in the learning process. The question (stupid if you ask me) does not say both fouls are equal and in FIBA a disqualifying foul Art 37 (flagrantly unsproting action) has a different penalty than a personal foul. So, I can understand cancelling equal penalties but this was not the case as I understand the question. Also Art 42.2.2 supports the cancelling of equal penalties and then administering what is left over.

Dang what am I missing in this.

Smoke,

The answer is in your post. "In FIBA rules all Double fouls cancel and no free throws shall be awarded. Art 35.2"

Sometimes it is not for us to question the logic behind a rule but just know what it is and enforce it correctly.

Originally Posted by jallen

this is a good question and does happen. In Fiba equal gravity fouls cancel. Double fouls go back to the team in control as in the case of most double fouls. However, in this case one foul is disqualifying so the other team shall have the ball at center for a throw in and can use both courts to inbound the ball. Questions may seem stupid until the time they happen and then what?
last night we called an unsportsman foul on team A followed by two Techs on Team B. what cancels here?

That's an easy one...
Team A Unsportmanlike & 1st Team B Technical cancel.

Any Team A player shoots 2 FTs for the 2nd Team B Technical and Team A gets the ball at the division line for the throw-in.

[SmokeEater]

Thanks eg & Ref_in_A. I know the answer and I know how to enforce it just trying to wrap my head around teh why's of it all. Like you say sometimes questioning the reasoning is the wrong way to go. I was hung up on the fact the penalty for the dq foul carried the possesion as well. The way the question was worded was bad in mine and plenty of others opinon. Along with quite a few other questions that tested our ability to read rather than our knowledge of the rules.

This helps a lot.

Originally Posted by eg-italy

On the other hand, a double foul is when two players commit a foul against each other at approximately the same time. It doesn't matter the kind of foul: the play is resumed at the POI (to use Fed's language). For example, while B1 pushes A1 (player in control of the ball), A1 strikes B1 in the face with an elbow: double foul, but A1's foul is probably disqualifying (flagrant, in Fed's language). Play is resumed with a throw-in for team A.

It would be very different if A1 strikes B1 after the pushing foul. The two fouls are not at the same time any more and so a different rule comes into play: penalties do not cancel and they are administered in order of occurrence. If team B is in team penalty situation (after the fourth foul in a period), the substitute of A1 would shoot two FT and B1 would shoot two FT followed by possession for team B at the division line.

[jallen]

too easy it seems, although it did not happen, we did inform the coach anyone could shoot. thought he may sent the best shooter from the bench to take them but he did not, he may not have know he could. But I did say anyone could shoot the T

[NICK]

This foul situation comes under the rule "Special Situations" towards the end of the Fiba rulebook. cheers- Nick

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Thanks eg & Ref_in_A. I know the answer and I know how to enforce it just trying to wrap my head around teh why's of it all. Like you say sometimes questioning the reasoning is the wrong way to go. I was hung up on the fact the penalty for the dq foul carried the possesion as well. The way the question was worded was bad in mine and plenty of others opinon. Along with quite a few other questions that tested our ability to read rather than our knowledge of the rules.

In FIBA there's no concept of "multiple foul", "false double foul" or "false multiple foul". There used to be "multiple fouls", but they were deleted several years ago. Another fundamental difference with NFHS is that a personal foul can be committed when the ball is dead.

Fouls (personal or technical) are penalized in order of occurrence, after cancelling equal penalties against both teams. The only situation where this is impossible is the double foul, when the illegal contact is committed by two opponents at the same time against each other.

After a double foul (with no other foul during the same dead ball period) the play is resumed just like in NFHS; there's no definition of POI, in FIBA, but the concept is the same (article 42.2.7).

A possible source for confusion is the fact that when all penalties cancel, play is resumed like after a double foul. However this should not guide our understanding of the rules: a double foul is a specific situation covered by the rules which should not be confused with "special situations" (article 42, as Nick pointed out).

Ciao