FIBA Question

[Odd Duck]

I know the ruling under NFHS, but have been told the ruling would be different under FIBA...but I want a second opinion. Please cite the rule if possible.

Three scenerios:

1) Player jumps to shoot (or pass). Defender gets hand on ball preventing player from releasing ball. Both come down with hand on ball.

2) Same scenerio, but defender only has hand on ball momentarily and loses contact prior to offensive player returning to the floor. Offensive player then returns to the court with the ball.

3) Same as #2, except offensive player lets go of ball while in the air and then regains ball while still in the air. Offensive player then returns to the court with the ball.

What do you have?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Odd Duck

I know the ruling under NFHS, but have been told the ruling would be different under FIBA...but I want a second opinion. Please cite the rule if possible.

Three scenerios:

1) Player jumps to shoot (or pass). Defender gets hand on ball preventing player from releasing ball. Both come down with hand on ball.

2) Same scenerio, but defender only has hand on ball momentarily and loses contact prior to offensive player returning to the floor. Offensive player then returns to the court with the ball.

3) Same as #2, except offensive player lets go of ball while in the air and then regains ball while still in the air. Offensive player then returns to the court with the ball.

What do you have?

FIBA Rulings:

1. Travel
2. Travel
3. Not sure... egitaly?

[SmokeEater]

I got travel on all three situations. In #3 the player must return to the floor before securing control of the ball again. I am still looking for the reference.

[bigdog5142]

I want to make sure I've got my NFHS ruling right...

#1 Jump ball
#2 Travelling
#3 Nothing

[Tweet]

1) Player A jumps with ball and Player B blocks the shot with both hands firmly on the ball and causes Player A to return to the floor with both guys still holding ball --> JUMP BALL --> Casebook 25-4

2) Player B blocks shot by putting hands on ball but never firmly holding it causing Player A to return to floor with ball --> Travel --> Casebook 25-6


3) If ball was blocked on a shot and ball was released and then caught by the same player before he returned to the floor then NO CALL --> Casebook 25-10. If it was not on a shot then you have to decide whether or not Offensive player lost control of the ball if he did then he cannot travel --> Travel can only occur during player control

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Tweet

1) Player A jumps with ball and Player B blocks the shot with both hands firmly on the ball and causes Player A to return to the floor with both guys still holding ball --> JUMP BALL --> Casebook 25-4

2) Player B blocks shot by putting hands on ball but never firmly holding it causing Player A to return to floor with ball --> Travel --> Casebook 25-6


3) If ball was blocked on a shot and ball was released and then caught by the same player before he returned to the floor then NO CALL --> Casebook 25-10. If it was not on a shot then you have to decide whether or not Offensive player lost control of the ball if he did then he cannot travel --> Travel can only occur during player control

I think you are referencing NFHS casebook so I will state the following

1) for FIBA we are being taught that firm grip means that it would take some force for one of the players to take the ball away from the other in order for that to be a held ball situation.
2) exactly the same
3) although the shot attempt has ended the player is still considered an airborne shooter until both feet are on the floor again. If the player regains control before landing again it is also a travel.

[Mark Padgett]

FEEBLE rules:

1) surrender
2) surrender
3) surrender

Hey you Euros, notice the grinning face, OK?

[Tweet]

No!.... I was referencing the Fiba casebook

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Tweet

No!.... I was referencing the Fiba casebook

From FIBA.com website

"Q: Where can I get a FIBA Casebook?

There is no FIBA Casebook. FIBA does not publish casebooks. "

Can you direct me to where I can read the casebook plays you have? It would assist me with my learning.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

FIBA Rulings:

1. Travel
2. Travel
3. Not sure... egitaly?

I'd say travel also in case 3, unless it can be judged a try for goal or the defender touches the ball when not in the hands of the shooter.

There's no rule saying that, after a try, you have to land before touching the ball again.

Ciao

[Jay R]

My thoughts.

1. Travel in FIBA, although a casebook example says that two hands on the ball by the defender would be a jump ball.

2. Travel for sure.

3. Have to see it. If the defender touches the ball and it becomes losse, no call. If the offensive player voluntarily releases the ball and catches it again, travel. My understanding is that this is not a shot but the ball becomes losse because the defender knocks the ball out of his hands. Odd Duck, if you mean something else, please clarify.

PS. FIBA did produce a casebook in 2006. It is probably the only FIBA document not available on their website. I have a copy which I bought through Basketbal New Brunswick here in Canada.

SmokeEater, careful; with your wording. The shot attempt does not end on the release, only team control. The act of shooting continues until both feet have returned to the ground (one foot in NCAA, not sure about NFHS?). Having said that, it has no relevance for this question.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Jay R

PS. FIBA did produce a casebook in 2006. It is probably the only FIBA document not available on their website. I have a copy which I bought through Basketbal New Brunswick here in Canada.

From what I have been able to tell that publication was produced by NB basketball and possibly not endorsed by FIBA. I still have not found anything that has actually come from FIBA itself.

Originally Posted by Jay R

SmokeEater, careful; with your wording. The shot attempt does not end on the release, only team control. The act of shooting continues until both feet have returned to the ground (one foot in NCAA, not sure about NFHS?). Having said that, it has no relevance for this question.

From the 2006 FIBA Exam,
41. Do team control and the act of shooting both ALWAYS end at the same time? Ans. NO 4:14 & 15

4:14.3 Team control ends when:
• An opponent gains control.
• The ball becomes dead.
• The ball has left the player's hand(s) on a shot for a field goal or for a free throw.

4:15.2 The act of shooting:
• Begins when the player starts the continuous movement normally preceding the release of the ball and, in the judgement of the official, he has started an attempt to score by throwing, tapping or dunking the ball towards the opponents' basket.
• Ends when the ball has left the player’s hand(s) and, in case of an airborne shooter, both feet have returned to the floor.

Based on these rules is why I said what I said.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

3) although the shot attempt has ended the player is still considered an airborne shooter until both feet are on the floor again.

But I am still trying to learn so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

4:15.2 The act of shooting:
...
• Ends when the ball has left the player’s hand(s) and, in case of an airborne shooter, both feet have returned to the floor.

Based on these rules is why I said what I said.

This has nothing to do with the traveling rule: any player can recover the ball after a try for goal. The rule you cited is relevant for fouls on the airborne shooter, who continues to be an airborne shooter until both feet return to the floor.

OP's case #3 can be judged also a fumble, in which case there is no travel.

Ciao

[Jay R]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater
3) although the shot attempt has ended the player is still considered an airborne shooter until both feet are on the floor again.

Smoke,

Think about what your saying. It can't be both. Either the shot attempt has ended or it hasn't ended.

Team control ends on the release, not the shot attempt (which in proper terms is the act of shooting), at least not when the shooter is airborne.

Also, I have the 2006 FIBA Casebook in front of me. It says published by FIBA. For copies, contact the publisher at:
FIBA
Chemin de Blandonnet 8
PO Box 715
CH-1214 Vernier
Geneva
Switzerland

[limeyref11]

1) Jump Ball
2) Travelling
3) Legal Play - no call

These are all official interpretations which are practically seen almost every week in European Competition.

There is currently no FIBA casebook. There a 2006 Document which is an Official Interpretations document , which is almost as useful - this can be downloaded from www.fiba.com - although when I scanned it, I cannot see this covered there.

The last one is not a fumble either, as generally a fumble is classed as mis-control by a player with the ball the beginning or end of a dribble. The fact another player touches the ball in these cases, and that the fumble rule more generally relates to a dribble - see 24.1.2 and 24.1.3 bullet 2 - not act of shooting or a pass.

I think it would be fair to say that FIBA Referees who see the plays as asked in the 3 questions would not be thinking of a fumble situation to judge, only travel, jump ball, or no-call as described.