Pass to self

[dbking]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Did you even read 9-5 before posting this? Either Scratch did or he knows it pretty darn well.

Rule 9-5 has nothing to do with original post. The original posts mentions nothing about dribbling again. You are trying to make a case for a rule that does not exist. Any player may retreive a loose ball. The only time a player is restricted from obtaining a loose ball that is clearly stated in rules is when player is making a throw in.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dbking

In each of these cases, he dribbles again making it an illegal dribble. The opponents backboard is defined in rule 4-4 as part of the floor therefore making it part of the definition of a dribble. There is no rule that prevents him from picking up a loose ball. The restrictions placed on the person make the play illegal and have absolutely nothing to do with the original post.

There is no such thing as a "loose ball" in NFHS rules. If it's a fumble, he may recover it, if it's a pass, it's an illegal dribble.

Are you honestly saying the first play in the OP is legal?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by dbking

Rule 9-5 has nothing to do with original post. The original posts mentions nothing about dribbling again. You are trying to make a case for a rule that does not exist. Any player may retreive a loose ball. The only time a player is restricted from obtaining a loose ball that is clearly stated in rules is when player is making a throw in.

The "ruling" portion of the case play refutes you:

RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore, A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

It's a violation when A1 touches the ball again, not when he dribbles again.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's a specific case play where A1, having used his/her dribble, passes the ball toward A2. A2 is not looking and runs away and A1 recovers the ball after it bounces.

The ruling has gone back and forth as to whether it's an illegal dribble or a travel, but it's clear that it's a violation.

Bob,

Can you point me to this case? I'm having trouble locating it. In NCAA it's AR 88, but I'd like to locate it in the NFHS book too.

[Back In The Saddle]

Okay, let me see if I understand this correctly.

If, as in the OP, the ball handler A1 has used his/her dribble...

If A1 fumbles the ball, he/she may take any number of steps and legally recover the ball (NFHS 4-21, 4.15.4D (d), NCAA 4-31.2). But unless the fumble touches another player before A1 recovers it, A1 may not dribble again legally. (NFHS 9-5-3, NCAA 9-7.1c)

If A1 attempts a bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 is the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor, A1 has committed an illegal dribble/double dribble. (NFHS 9-5, NCAA 9-7.1, NCAA AR 88)

If A1 attempts a non-bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 moves beyond the prescribed pivot foot limits and catches the ball before it touches the ground, A1 has traveled. (NFHS 4-44, 4.44.3D (d), NCAA 4-70)

However, if A1 has not used his/her dribble...

If A1 fumbles the ball, he/she may recover the ball and legally begin a dribble. (The fumble-dribble-fumble maxim often quoted here)

If A1 attempts a bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 is the first to touch the ball after it has touched the floor, A1 has begun a dribble and may legally continue that dribble. If A1 recovers the ball in a way that ends the dribble, A1 may not legally dribble again.

If A1 attempts a non-bounce pass, which for whatever reason no teammate is there to receive, and A1 moves beyond the prescribed pivot foot limits and catches the ball before it touches the ground, A1 has still traveled. Having dribbled, or not dribbled, prior to this action is irrelevant.

Are any of those statements incorrect?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dbking

Rule 9-5 has nothing to do with original post. The original posts mentions nothing about dribbling again. You are trying to make a case for a rule that does not exist. Any player may retreive a loose ball. The only time a player is restricted from obtaining a loose ball that is clearly stated in rules is when player is making a throw in.

That's simply not true.

If it's a fumble, any player may retrieve the ball.

If it's a pass, touching it again before another player touches constitutes the start of a dribble. Since he's already used his dribble, the second dribble is illegal.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Bob,

Can you point me to this case? I'm having trouble locating it. In NCAA it's AR 88, but I'd like to locate it in the NFHS book too.

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)


For years, this was called an illegal dribble. Then, it was called traveling. Now, it's just illegal.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)


For years, this was called an illegal dribble. Then, it was called traveling. Now, it's just illegal.

Thank you

[dbking]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in (a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

The original post still needs to be clarified. Did the pass touch the floor? If it did, it is perfectly legal. Case play states as such. However as for the case play in b) there is not rule that calls for this to be a violation. The case book gives a reference to infer it is illegal. READ Rule 9-4, 4-44 and 4-29. If rule book does not prevent it, it is legal. I will contact NFHS and get clarification on this. I am sure that the case play is how NFHS wants it called but there is absolutely NO rule that states its case. It is not in 4-44, 9-4, 9-5. It is an assumed rule that I have seen alot of officials try to enforce. They are making up rules and their application.

I will post clarification from KS and NFHS.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by dbking

The original post still needs to be clarified. Did the pass touch the floor? If it did, it is perfectly legal. Case play states as such. However as for the case play in b) there is not rule that calls for this to be a violation. The case book gives a reference to infer it is illegal. READ Rule 9-4, 4-44 and 4-29. If rule book does not prevent it, it is legal. I will contact NFHS and get clarification on this. I am sure that the case play is how NFHS wants it called but there is absolutely NO rule that states its case. It is not in 4-44, 9-4, 9-5. It is an assumed rule that I have seen alot of officials try to enforce. They are making up rules and their application.

I will post clarification from KS and NFHS.

Sorry partner but you're the only one making up rules here.

9-5-3 is EXACTLY the corrrect rule, yet you can't see it.

A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended, unless it is after he/she has lost control because of:
A pass or fumble which has then touched, or been touched byanother player.

The player has ended his dribble, has lost control of the ball because of a pass that has NOT touched another player.

If what you say were true, any player could end his dribble, throw the ball, run and retrieve after it hits the floor. Pardon me but that's ridiculous, it's not supported by rule, and in direct contradiction with 9-5-3. When you throw the ball, it hits the floor and you're the first player to touch it, that's the beginning of a dribble. If you've already used your dribble, then you've now committed an illegal dribble.

As for the case play, it does not infer that it is illegal. It states that it is illegal.

That's as clear as I can make it for you.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by dbking

The original post still needs to be clarified. Did the pass touch the floor? If it did, it is perfectly legal. Case play states as such. However as for the case play in b) there is not rule that calls for this to be a violation. The case book gives a reference to infer it is illegal. READ Rule 9-4, 4-44 and 4-29. If rule book does not prevent it, it is legal. I will contact NFHS and get clarification on this. I am sure that the case play is how NFHS wants it called but there is absolutely NO rule that states its case. It is not in 4-44, 9-4, 9-5. It is an assumed rule that I have seen alot of officials try to enforce. They are making up rules and their application.

I will post clarification from KS and NFHS.

Don't bother. The NFHS has already answered your question. A player throwing a pass which strikes the floor, but isn't touched by another player constitutes a dribble if the original player is the first one to touch the ball again. So, if the player has not yet used his dribble this action is fine, but if he has, then this becomes an illegal dribble (double dribble) violation.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

[Adam]

I'm anxious to see if KS has refuted this somehow; it would somehow fit in with their interpretation that a coach must be actively coaching in order to legally stand in the coaching box.

[tominator]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Don't bother. The NFHS has already answered your question. A player throwing a pass which strikes the floor, but isn't touched by another player constitutes a dribble if the original player is the first one to touch the ball again. So, if the player has not yet used his dribble this action is fine, but if he has, then this becomes an illegal dribble (double dribble) violation.

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 6: A1 jumps from the floor and secures a defensive re-bound. A1 then pivots toward the sideline where a teammate, A2, is standing for an outlet pass. Just as A1 releases the pass, A2 turns and runs down the court. A1 throws a soft bounce pass to where A2 was standing. A1 then moves and secures the ball without dribbling. RULING: Legal action. A1 had the pivot foot on the floor and began a dribble by throwing the ball to the floor (the bounce pass); the dribble ended when A1 secured the ball. Upon reaching the ball, A1 also could have continued the dribble. (4-15-3,4)

Slightly different situation but what do you have. A1 has possession of the ball but has not dribbled. A1 rolls the ball down the court, then runs and retrieves it without any other players touching the ball, then a) passes to a teammate, or b) dribbles.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by tominator

Slightly different situation but what do you have. A1 has possession of the ball but has not dribbled. A1 rolls the ball down the court, then runs and retrieves it without any other players touching the ball, then a) passes to a teammate, or b) dribbles.

"THE GAME – Basketball is played by two teams of five players each. The purpose of each team is to throw the ball into its own basket and to prevent the other team from scoring. The ball may be thrown, batted, rolled or dribbled in any direction, subject to restrictions laid down in the following rules."

I cannot think of any rules that control rolling the ball. I'm tempted to say a) and b) are both legal actions. However, there will be some folks along shortly to argue that it's either a pass or the beginning of a dribble. I'll be interested to hear their arguments.