End of game situation

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I'm putting up my "best estimate" if I have to. It's the right thing to do. I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted).

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, so now we're going to fix our mistake. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out. Not to mention compounding your mistakes.

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing. You're right, if he doesn't know any better, he likely won't ask or he'll be satisfied with your answer. If he does know, then you have the two options I presented. Which are you going with?

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TonyT

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Rule 5-6:
"ART. 2 . . . Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired."

...trying...hard...not...to...explode...

Oh, what the hell: shut up.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TonyT

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

If I look up and see 1 on the clock, I'll put it up there. If I look up and see 0, there's nothing I can do. Definitely knowledge is the key here, and we don't have it. Definite knowledge, at the minimum, means you have a minimum number to put up on the clock. If, when I blow my whistle, I look up and see the clock running and .8 on the clock as it ticks down, I'll put .8 up even though I know there was more time. I don't know how much more, so I can't put it up there. In this scenario, if I look up and it's already down to 0, I have no knowledge of how much time to put up.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

[rfp]

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?