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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 09:33am
rfp rfp is offline
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End of game situation

Theoretical situation. Team A up by 1 point in the closing seconds of the game. Team B with the ball. Team B shoots and scores. Team A requests time out. Official blows whistle granting the time out. Immediately after the whistle sounds, the horn goes off signaling end of game. As the official, since you know your whistle beat the horn, can you put time back on the clock? If so, how much? To make it interesting, clock can only be set in 1-second intervals, no tenths. Discuss among yourselves, then I'll let you know what our interpreter said.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 09:43am
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Time can be put back on the clock only if you have definite knowledge of the amount that should be put on. Hopefully you would have looked at the clock to see the amount of time.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 11:23am
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In an end of game situation like that, you *have* to know what was on the clock. You see or hear the time out request, your eyes immediately go to the clock as you are blowing your whistle. But if you didn't for whatever reason...

In the OP if I know my whistle beat the horn, step one is to immediately and very forcefully take control of the situation. Let everybody know the game is not over, and that we have a time out. Next, get right with your partner(s) and find out if either glanced at the clock (as well as the normal stuff about whose ball and where it's coming in). If one of them looked at the clock, there's your definite knowledge. If not, you might also canvas your table crew to see if one of them looked at the clock. If not, you've got a problem. You know there was some time on the clock when the whistle sounded, but not how much. Definite knowledge or not, there is no way I'm going to let the clock expire on this. If the clock does not support 10ths of a second, then it's easy, put one second on the clock. Otherwise, I'm going with my best estimate. The only thing I care about in my estimate is whether the remaining time should be more or less than .3 seconds.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 11:36am
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If I or my partners did not see the time on the clock, game over.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 11:57am
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Well, there are 2 parts to this question - what the rule says, and what your interpreter says. If they are the same, there's no problem. If they are different, then there's also no problem - you do what your interpreter says, even if it's wrong.

5-10 pretty much covers this situation: "The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock." Simply knowing that there was some amount of time in between the whistle and the horn is not the same as "definite information". Definite information can be someone seeing the actual time on the clock, or it can be an official's count of some kind.

I agree with everything BITS says, up to the point where he says, "Otherwise, I'm going with my best estimate". We cannot use an estimate, no matter how much it would seem somewhat fair. Someone on the crew (officiating and table) had better have something better than an estimate. Otherwise, you cannot put a guess back on the clock. Also, if the clock does not show tenths, and you know the display had 0 while the horn had not sounded, then you cannot put 1 second back on because you would be putting back more time than what is allowed.

To quote an old, esteemed member, "Rulz is rulz."
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 12:00pm
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Originally Posted by M&M Guy View Post
I agree with everything BITS says, up to the point where he says, "Otherwise, I'm going with my best estimate". We cannot use an estimate, no matter how much it would seem somewhat fair. Someone on the crew (officiating and table) had better have something better than an estimate. Otherwise, you cannot put a guess back on the clock. Also, if the clock does not show tenths, and you know the display had 0 while the horn had not sounded, then you cannot put 1 second back on because you would be putting back more time than what is allowed.

To quote an old, esteemed member, "Rulz is rulz."
Yep. And definite knowledge is definite knowledge.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 01:53pm
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The entire discussion is moot, however, if we simply look immediately to the clock when granting the timeout. Mechanics, mechanics, mechanics.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 02:09pm
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Ahh, but what to do if it is one of those clocks that rolls to 0 when 0.9 seconds remain? You see the clock show zero, the horn blows nearly a second after you see the time show 0? Hmmm.


I'm with BITS...if my whistle is clearly and distinctly before the horn, I am going to put time back on the clock...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Even if I can't see the clock, I have a good enough sense of time to have definite knowledge. You better come up with something....especially if the two (whistle/horn) are not almost simultaneous.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 02:48pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Ahh, but what to do if it is one of those clocks that rolls to 0 when 0.9 seconds remain? You see the clock show zero, the horn blows nearly a second after you see the time show 0? Hmmm.


I'm with BITS...if my whistle is clearly and distinctly before the horn, I am going to put time back on the clock...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Even if I can't see the clock, I have a good enough sense of time to have definite knowledge. You better come up with something....especially if the two (whistle/horn) are not almost simultaneous.
Btw, I agree with BITS too. (Well, at least his statement about this whole discussion is moot if you follow the correct mechanics and actually know how much time is left.)

I don't disagree it's real hard to explain to a coach or team that yes, we know the whistle happened first, but since we don't know exactly how much time was left, we can't put any time back on. But that is the rule. We've discussed "fair" before on many different subjects, but it usually boils down to: we can't make things "fair", we can only go with what the rules tell us. Correctable error rules aren't necessarily "fair", but if the crew (officials and table) follow all the correct mechanics, we would not have any correctable errors. The way the blarge is handled may not be "fair", but if officials handled the mechanics correctly, there would be no blarges.

Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example? What sort of official count are you using? Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

In other words, what rule or case are you using to put "something" back up?
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 03:14pm
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I'm putting up my "best estimate" if I have to. It's the right thing to do. I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted).

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, so now we're going to fix our mistake. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out. Not to mention compounding your mistakes.

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 03:21pm
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Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Interesting statement.

How is not following the rules the right thing to do?
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 03:32pm
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Originally Posted by bbcof83 View Post
I'm putting up my "best estimate" if I have to. It's the right thing to do. I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted).

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, so now we're going to fix our mistake. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out. Not to mention compounding your mistakes.

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 03:34pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.
"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 03:51pm
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Originally Posted by bbcof83 View Post
I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted). Timer error - mistake #1

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, Official's error - mistake #2 so now we're going to fix our mistake. Another official's error - mistake #3. Otherwise known as compounding your mistakes. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out.
Actually, the cowardly way out is trying to do something outside the rules just to keep people happy, and make things "fair" in your mind. Yep, the timer might've screwed up by not stopping the clock in time. But the crew also screwed up by not observing exactly how much time was on the clock at the time of the whistle. And the cowardly way is not simply admitting the screwup, but trying to get out of it by doing something specifically not allowed by the rules. And there is no where in the rules or case plays that allow an "estimate" of any kind.
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Old Mon Nov 16, 2009, 04:01pm
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But M&M, it's the right thing to do you coward.
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