End of game situation

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I did answer the question. I put in quotes what I would say if I were the Crew Chief.

I'm not worry about riots. Integrity means doing the right thing even if it not always the best thing. In the long run you'll get more respect for admitting your mistake and applying the rules correctly in the aftermath than if you just wing it to keep everyone happy.

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

[rfp]

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Also, if the clock does not show tenths, and you know the display had 0 while the horn had not sounded, then you cannot put 1 second back on because you would be putting back more time than what is allowed.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

If the clock doesn't do 10ths of a second, 1 second resolution is the best you've got. So it's 1 second, or 0 seconds. Take your pick. Welcome back to the 1980's.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example?

Can you honestly tell me your arm swing is exactly 5 seconds and not 4.8 or 5.5 seconds? How close to three seconds is your mental "one-thousand-one"? The rules allow for some pretty inaccurate "definite information," giving tacit acknowledgement that "the best we can do" is the best that we've got.

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game.

We haven't even addressed the situation where the V team requests the time out and the home scorer lets the clock run out. This doesn't always happen innocently.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing....Which are you going with?

I'm going to get both coaches together very briefly, and I am going to tell them what we're going to do. We're not going to discuss how we came to our decision about how much time to put back on the clock.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you guess 1 second, and the replay later shows .8 seconds when you blew your whistle, you're screwed.

I am equally screwed if the replay shows there is .8 seconds and my crew ended the game because we didn't know how much time to put on the clock. Sure, we'd be right by rule. But we're still screwed.

Originally Posted by bbcof83

You're probably right. It just makes me squirm thinking about it. I guess I just need to make sure this NEVER happens to me.

Amen, Brother! (Or is it Sister?)

Originally Posted by rfp

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

I submit that all of that information contributes to "definite knowledge". You know there was a discernible gap between the whistle and the horn. You know that the time on the clock when the whistle was blown was the amount of time it takes to blow then look. You know the timer reacted immediately, but was unable to stop the clock in time. Put all that together, and you should be able to come to an estimate that is accurate to 1 or 2 10ths, and a heck of a lot more accurate than are allowed when timing something with an arm swing.

Originally Posted by just another ref

The phrase in the rule is "definite knowledge relative to the time involved."
Without knowing an exact amount, there is no definite knowledge.

Funny how inexact "definite knowledge" can be.

[rfp]

Put one second back on the clock. His position is you have definite knowledge that there is some time left. Since the clock provides no more precision than 1 second, that's what you should go with.

I don't know that he can point to a rule as the basis for this decision, but there it is.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rfp

Put one second back on the clock. His position is you have definite knowledge that there is some time left. Since the clock provides no more precision than 1 second, that's what you should go with.

I don't know that he can point to a rule as the basis for this decision, but there it is.

I'm a little confused on how "requesting a time out" is different from "a foul near the end of the game."

And case 5.6.2D (although it complicates the situation a little with subsequent technical fouls) indicates that no time is put back on the clock.

NCAA has a similar interp, except that in games with a monitor, we can put time back based on that review.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

If the clock doesn't do 10ths of a second, 1 second resolution is the best you've got. So it's 1 second, or 0 seconds. Take your pick. Welcome back to the 1980's.

Well, then I'm taking off my purple leisure suit, putting on my striped shirt with a collar, and declaring the game over because back in the 1980's there was the rule on lag time, where the official was required to allow 1 second to run off because of a timer's reaction time.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Can you honestly tell me your arm swing is exactly 5 seconds and not 4.8 or 5.5 seconds? How close to three seconds is your mental "one-thousand-one"? The rules allow for some pretty inaccurate "definite information," giving tacit acknowledgement that "the best we can do" is the best that we've got.

I agree, but there is still a difference between "accurate" and "definite", and the rules allow for an official's count, even if it is inaccurate.

Look at case play 5.10.1 Sit. B - The ball is inbounded by A in the backcourt with 12 seconds left, A2 continues to dribble in the backcourt the official loses track of his count, and the clock expires. The ruling is the game is over. How come? If I was to do what's "fair", I would say there should've been a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds on the clock, and give the ball to B for a throw-in. But that is not what happens.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I am equally screwed if the replay shows there is .8 seconds and my crew ended the game because we didn't know how much time to put on the clock. Sure, we'd be right by rule. But we're still screwed.

Screwed? Yes in both cases. But I would rather screw up a mechanic than a rule. And putting up time without definite information as provided by the rules would be screwing up a rule.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

I submit that all of that information contributes to "definite knowledge". You know there was a discernible gap between the whistle and the horn. You know that the time on the clock when the whistle was blown was the amount of time it takes to blow then look. You know the timer reacted immediately, but was unable to stop the clock in time. Put all that together, and you should be able to come to an estimate that is accurate to 1 or 2 10ths, and a heck of a lot more accurate than are allowed when timing something with an arm swing.

I understand your thinking. However, how do you explain 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3?

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Funny how inexact "definite knowledge" can be.

Not according to the rules.

[Raymond]

We need to remember there are "dictionary" definitions and "rule book" definitions. When they don't jibe you go with the rule book definition.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, then I'm taking off my purple leisure suit, putting on my striped shirt with a collar, and declaring the game over because back in the 1980's there was the rule on lag time, where the official was required to allow 1 second to run off because of a timer's reaction time.


I agree, but there is still a difference between "accurate" and "definite", and the rules allow for an official's count, even if it is inaccurate.

Look at case play 5.10.1 Sit. B - The ball is inbounded by A in the backcourt with 12 seconds left, A2 continues to dribble in the backcourt the official loses track of his count, and the clock expires. The ruling is the game is over. How come? If I was to do what's "fair", I would say there should've been a 10-second violation, put 2 seconds on the clock, and give the ball to B for a throw-in. But that is not what happens.


Screwed? Yes in both cases. But I would rather screw up a mechanic than a rule. And putting up time without definite information as provided by the rules would be screwing up a rule.


I understand your thinking. However, how do you explain 5-6-2, Art. 2 & 3?


Not according to the rules.

When you blow your whistle and then look up at the clock, there is a slight delay. We never know exactly what time was on the clock. We know what time was on the clock after we blew our whistle. That is the time we use for definite knowledge purposes. If we blow our whistle to grant a time out and then the buzzer sounds, we have definite knowledge that there was time on the clock. However, if the clock doesn't show tenths then we don't know exactly how much time to put on the clock.

For those who suggest we don't put time on the clock, what are you going to do if the clock operator is biased and allows the clock to run out knowing that the clock doesn't show tenths of a second? And also knowing you can't put time on the clock if you don't have definite knowldedge. Sorry coach, you got hosed by the home team clock operator but since I don't have definite knowledge, game over. Now, what happens if this is a state championship?

It could happen!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rfp

A lot of this debate has had to do with seeming errors committed by the timer (for being too slow) and the officials (for not looking at the clock after blowing the whistle).

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle. Despite his immediate reaction, the horn signaled the end of the period. The officials did look up after blowing the whistle -- they saw 0:00.0. No mistake on anyone's part. But the officials and everyone else knows that the whistle came first followed very shortly by the final horn. There is "definite knowledge" that there was a lag between the whistle and the horn. The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

If it's so quick that the official looks up immediately and sees zeros, there's nothing that can be done. Up until about 2 years ago, the lag time rule would have ended the game even if the official saw .9 second on the clock anyway.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rfp

But in my sitch, there were no errors. The timer responded as quickly as he could once he heard the whistle.
...
The unknown is how much of a time difference. So the questions is, can you have definite knowledge without knowing the exact amount of time?

In some cases, yes...but not in this case.

In this case, the amount of time is not limited to what an official sees on the board. Any type of counting the official does on the court is a valid source of definite knowledge.

The cases were you don't need an exact time are those when you have a clock not starting and have a sequence of counts that are not continuous. Example: Throwin...backcourt count for 8 seconds....ball in front court from some time (not closely guarded)...then ball is closely guarded for 3 seconds when the official recognizes that the clock didn't start....you take 11 seconds off. It is definite knowledge since those counts were known. The remainder of the time can not be adjusted unless there is some other form of definite information.