End of game situation

[Camron Rust]

Ahh, but what to do if it is one of those clocks that rolls to 0 when 0.9 seconds remain? You see the clock show zero, the horn blows nearly a second after you see the time show 0? Hmmm.


I'm with BITS...if my whistle is clearly and distinctly before the horn, I am going to put time back on the clock...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Even if I can't see the clock, I have a good enough sense of time to have definite knowledge. You better come up with something....especially if the two (whistle/horn) are not almost simultaneous.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ahh, but what to do if it is one of those clocks that rolls to 0 when 0.9 seconds remain? You see the clock show zero, the horn blows nearly a second after you see the time show 0? Hmmm.


I'm with BITS...if my whistle is clearly and distinctly before the horn, I am going to put time back on the clock...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Even if I can't see the clock, I have a good enough sense of time to have definite knowledge. You better come up with something....especially if the two (whistle/horn) are not almost simultaneous.

Btw, I agree with BITS too. (Well, at least his statement about this whole discussion is moot if you follow the correct mechanics and actually know how much time is left.)

I don't disagree it's real hard to explain to a coach or team that yes, we know the whistle happened first, but since we don't know exactly how much time was left, we can't put any time back on. But that is the rule. We've discussed "fair" before on many different subjects, but it usually boils down to: we can't make things "fair", we can only go with what the rules tell us. Correctable error rules aren't necessarily "fair", but if the crew (officials and table) follow all the correct mechanics, we would not have any correctable errors. The way the blarge is handled may not be "fair", but if officials handled the mechanics correctly, there would be no blarges.

Now can you honestly tell me you know the difference between .9 seconds and .6, for example? What sort of official count are you using? Either way, in the case of a clock that does not show tenths, how can you justify putting 1.0 seconds on the clock when there could actually be .5 left? How is that "fair" to the other team, letting the one team have twice the amount of correct time left, just to put "something" back up?

In other words, what rule or case are you using to put "something" back up?

[bbcof83]

I'm putting up my "best estimate" if I have to. It's the right thing to do. I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted).

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, so now we're going to fix our mistake. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out. Not to mention compounding your mistakes.

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Interesting statement.

How is not following the rules the right thing to do?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I'm putting up my "best estimate" if I have to. It's the right thing to do. I am not going to allow a "slow trigger finger" by the timer to end a well contested game. We officials, as a crew, are in charge of this game and we say when it's over, not the timer (who may be caught up watching the game, dropped the control button, morally compromised, or otherwise distracted).

If I know there was time on the clock when I granted the TO, the game is not over. We screwed up by not looking, so now we're going to fix our mistake. Any official who simply would say "We don't have definite knowledge of the time when the whistle blew, game over" is using terrible judgment and IMO is taking the cowardly way out. Not to mention compounding your mistakes.

Just because the rules back you up on something like that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

A simple, "coach, I granted the time out with time on the clock. The timer failed to stop the clock at that time so we will be putting time back up." I don't think there would be any argument.

You're putting yourself into a position of having to either lie to the coach or tell him you're guessing. You're right, if he doesn't know any better, he likely won't ask or he'll be satisfied with your answer. If he does know, then you have the two options I presented. Which are you going with?

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

"It's the right thing to do, coach."

Again, if we didn't see the clock, game over.

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by TonyT

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

...sigh...

Has anyone looked at rule 5-6-2 yet?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TonyT

If you know for sure that the whistle beat the horn how can you not put at least 1 second back on the clock? By the time you looked at the clock there would of been some time run off, as was in this case the ears beat the eyes.

If I look up and see 1 on the clock, I'll put it up there. If I look up and see 0, there's nothing I can do. Definitely knowledge is the key here, and we don't have it. Definite knowledge, at the minimum, means you have a minimum number to put up on the clock. If, when I blow my whistle, I look up and see the clock running and .8 on the clock as it ticks down, I'll put .8 up even though I know there was more time. I don't know how much more, so I can't put it up there. In this scenario, if I look up and it's already down to 0, I have no knowledge of how much time to put up.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I would love hear the discussion with Team B's coach explaining how you came up with your best estimate, especially if that coach knows the rule.

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

OK, so I'm still early on in my varsity career and I'm going completely off how I would handle this situation vs actual experience. But I'm sticking to my guns on this one. However I'll soften my position a little because I have literally no backup other than what I view as my "moral code"... I'd like to continue the conversation:

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

"The timer didn't stop the clock and we (the crew) didn't observe the time on the clock when the whistle blew so without definite knowlege we cannot put time on the clock."

In a big state championship game we may have an alternate ref at the table who we could consult. But I'm thinking that not all 3 officials would fall asleep in a state championship game.

I would hope not but you didn't answer my question. Would you walk off the court in that situation? If you KNEW there was time on the clock when you blew your whistle.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

So counterpoint, how would you tell the coach, who called the TO, heard your whistle, saw you point to his bench, all before the buzzer, "sorry, game is over"? If it's any kind of competitive game you would have a riot on your hands. How would you handle this if it's the big school state championship game (and replay is not an option, correct?)?

At this level of game, that's way too much time for this mistake. It wouldn't happen. It's even more important than ever to follow the rules here, though. If you guess 1 second, and the replay later shows .8 seconds when you blew your whistle, you're screwed.