Watta ya got video?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Thanks for YOUR concern though, tomegun.

No problem. I'm concerned because there is one "IU" that IMO is known more than others. Your post puts my common sense theory in trouble. I like the way you had no comment about the T being in the camera or the camera period.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

To be honest, the whole complexity of a secondary, or even a third defender, etc. never came in the discussions. Plain and simple, C or T has the drive to the bucket and first crack at any collision/contact. The C or T absolutely may decide that they have nothing, but if the L sees something that warrants a whistle, then by all means, come in and get it. That's the luxury of the 3 person.

Again, I am not questioning RD making this call.

So something doesn't come into the discussion even though it is obviously part of the video? How about this? We can talk all day about theory and what we would do, but RookieDude gave us some video. Looking at the play and making a call is the next best thing to being there and making the call on the spot - better than a lot of theory and chit chat. Keeping that in mind, you failed to make the right call OR at least use the correct rational for whatever call you would make. That is why I said you are overthinking and I don't think that anymore. I know you are overthinking.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wouldn't it have been easier to just say "You're right, JR.

No, because that would not be the truth.

I don't have a clue what habitual motion means. That's because I don't own a rule book and never have owned a rule book"?

I really think you need to lay off the Kool-Aid. It's starting to effect brain functionality. Which came first JR the chart or the wheel?

Not that everybody hasn't already figured that out........

Propaganda, it worked pretty good in WWII.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

I really think you need to lay off the Kool-Aid. It's starting to effect brain functionality. Which came first JR the chart or the wheel?

It depends. Is it a pie chart?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It depends. Is it a pie chart?

I was thinking more of a scatter(brain) chart.

[rockyroad]

IUGrad - where in Washington do you work games? Just wondering cause there's a number of us WA boys on here...

Old School really is cluless - why in the world would you say that NCAA Men's wants this play called a block?? What memo, POE, directive, etc. did you get that from? Can't remember? That's cause it never happened...

M&M, I'm gonna do it for you...no, wait...I can't. Then Bob would have to delete my post, and he's never had to do that before...so I don't want to make him have to delete this one just for telling Old School to stfu...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Propaganda, it worked pretty good in WWII.

Rule books, they work pretty good in officiating.

Ain't gonna play no more in this one, JMO. You had your chance to maybe gain a little credibility just by opening up a rule book or case book and simply writing down what it said. You couldn't. Carry on trying to answer questions according to what you see and hear on TV.

[jmaellis]

Since I'm now clear that the requirement (as it relates to the feet) in order to establish LGP is that any part of the foot is touching the floor, would anybody be interested in discussing verticality, specifically does verticality have anything to do with whether this is a block or PC?

Disclaimer: The following is a question, not an opinion or an interpretation unless so stated. Any description of the event or non-event, the placement of the feet/hands/body of a player are for the sole purpose of thoroughly explaining the situation so that everything that might be important is included for the purpose of a through analysis.

In the frame of the video where the offensive player is airborne (both feet off of the floor), and the defensive player has both feet touching the floor, it's seems that the defensive player was positioned at an angle. I have been told (in a discussion that I believe occurred on this board) that verticality is essentially straight up from the floor from a natural stance.

Because of the camera placement, the offensive player occludes our view of the defensive player, but is does seem as though the defensive player's body was still moving from left to right while the offensive player was airborne, and that the defensive player's body was still catching up with his momentum when contact occurred.

Does vertically play any part in whether or not this is a block or a PC? If it does, from where does the vertical boundary begin on each side of the defensive player's body?

If the boundaries of the vertical cylinder (I don't know of that is officialese, but it sounds descriptive for what I am trying to describe) begins on the outside of each foot and go straight up, that would be a lot of space in this scenario. In this case, if a line was drawn straight up from the outside of the defensive player's left foot where the foot was in contact with the court when the offensive player went airborne, and had the contact not occurred (for instance if the offensive player was one step slower), the defensive player would have continued in motion from left to right and ultimately would have occupied that space and the contact may not have ever occurred.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

Fine you disagree with the NFHS, NCAA and FIBA. I do not care. If you are going to call it the way you want to call it and not the correct way, then get the heck out of basketball officiating. You are doing a disservice to the game if you refuse the apply the rules correctly.

MTD, Sr.

In your opinion I am doing a disservice to officiating. I beg to differ. Technically, the call was correct but what you fail to understand, and this is my point, the OP guessed at it. He was not for sure until he went back and saw it on film. We are talking a split-second before everything lined up with the correct call. Do you even comprehend that in a split-second he could have been wrong? That's one of my problems here. Do you understand there is no such thing as a Superman? Then you understand there is no such thing as a perfect official. In order to get that call correct for the game winner consistently across the board of all NFHS officials is impossible. A bet you in that crew alone, you couldn't get all 3 of them at the Lead position, with the game on the line, to all make the same call.

Now you want to get mad at me because I'm for sure of my call. If I was to call player control, I would not be for sure. I think (split-second) that he got there first before offensive player left his feet. If I'm going to decide the state championship, or section championship, or any championship for that matter, I'm going with what I know for sure. I know for sure that A1 had an open look at the basket, because I saw the same thing (damn, how did he get that open) and B.) that defender came over late, caused a collision. I'm 80% block too late, I'm 20% (not sure) offensive foul. I'm going with the block, every single time. I'm 80% block, 20% charge, definitely not 50-50. BLOCK!!!!! I would have given you the best BLOCK, AND-1, GAME mechanic the world has ever seen, and then ran out to the locker room, all in one continuous motion.

Now, let's look at the 2nd video. If I got a block at the basket, that's gonna be a block at the top, or it's a better no call for me than the OP who called a PC at the basket. That's where we went inconsistent, imho. You see, the OP got lucky twice because he guessed at the 1st call and got it right, and because the player didn't lose control of the ball, he lucked out and didn't have to make a call on the 2nd video either. However, if the player would have lost control of the ball, what is your call? If the player dribble out of bounds, what is your call? If you call block, I'm showing that video to the league and I'm saying my player ducked to avoid contact and it was not a flop and he had established clearly LGP. Not to mention that a game winner was taken from me on a similar play earlier. What do you think the league is going to say? I think your actions when they are inconsistent are harder to defend. So don't come down to hard on me, I'm just keeping it real dawgs...

I got a BLOCK!!!!

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So something doesn't come into the discussion even though it is obviously part of the video? How about this? We can talk all day about theory and what we would do, but RookieDude gave us some video. Looking at the play and making a call is the next best thing to being there and making the call on the spot - better than a lot of theory and chit chat. Keeping that in mind, you failed to make the right call OR at least use the correct rational for whatever call you would make. That is why I said you are overthinking and I don't think that anymore. I know you are overthinking.

When I said 'never came into discussions', I was refering to pregame discussions. My reply post was to another reply post in regards to a comment I made about pregame discussions. So, I was not commenting on discussions, in general regard to this thread.

Feel free to comment on my posts, but only do so when you have my posts in correct context.

And one last time, my initial post was just asking RD about the crews philosophy on coverage on the drive. Not sure why you in particular, are jumping off the cliff on this one.

Yes, I too am from Indiana. Had the pleasure of working both boys and girls tournaments before moving to Washington.

I too, would like to think I am common sensical, but obviously am not as refined as you are. Maybe you were from southern Indiana......

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

IUGrad - where in Washington do you work games? Just wondering cause there's a number of us WA boys on here...

Old School really is cluless - why in the world would you say that NCAA Men's wants this play called a block?? What memo, POE, directive, etc. did you get that from? Can't remember? That's cause it never happened...

M&M, I'm gonna do it for you...no, wait...I can't. Then Bob would have to delete my post, and he's never had to do that before...so I don't want to make him have to delete this one just for telling Old School to stfu...

Spokane area, home of both 4A Boys and Girls champions. I know there a number of WA guys on here. Looks like mostly west side from what I can tell. Thanks for the shout out!!

[tmp44]

Originally Posted by Old School

In your opinion I am doing an disservice to officiating. I beg to differ. Technically, the call was correct but what you fail to understand, and this is my point, the OP guessed at it. He was not for sure until he went back and saw it on film. We are talking a split-second before everything lined up with the correct call. Do you even comprehend that in a split-second he could have been wrong? That's one of my problems here. Do you understand there is no such thing as a Superman? Then you understand there is no such thing as a perfect official. In order to get that call correct for the game winner consistently across the board of all NFHS officials is impossible. A bet you in that crew alone, you couldn't get all 3 of them at the Lead position, with the game on the line, to all make the same call.

Now you want to get mad at me because I'm for sure of my call. If I was to call player control, I would not be for sure. I think (split-second) that he got there first before offensive player left his feet. If I'm going to decide the state championship, or section championship, or any championship for that matter, I'm going with what I know for sure. I know for sure that A1 had an open look at the basket, because I saw the same thing (damn, how did he get that open) and B.) that defender came over late, caused a collision. I'm 80% block too late, I'm 20% (not sure) offensive foul. I'm going with the block, every single time. I'm 80% block, 20% charge, definitely not 50-50. BLOCK!!!!! I would have given you the best BLOCK, AND-1, GAME mechanic the world has ever seen, and then ran out to the locker room, all in one continuous motion.

Now, let's look at the 2nd video. If I got a block at the basket, that's gonna be a block at the top, or it's a better no call for me than the OP who called a PC at the basket. That's where we went inconsistent, imho. You see, the OP got lucky twice because he guessed at the 1st call and got it right, and because the player didn't lose control of the ball, he lucked out and didn't have to make a call on the 2nd video either. However, if the player would have lost control of the ball, what is your call? If the player dribble out of bounds, what is your call? If you call block, I'm showing that video to the league and I'm saying my player ducked to avoid contact and it was not a flop and he had established clearly LGP. Not to mention that a game winner was taken from me on a similar play earlier. What do you think the league is going to say? I think your actions when they are inconsistent are harder to defend. So don't come down to hard on me, I'm just keeping it real dawgs...

I got a BLOCK!!!!

You know what amazes me???? You just admitted that the call was technically correct, but yet you still would call a block. I don't even know what to say to that.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree. That's exactly how RookieDude covered it too.

Yep, he did....and did it well...as nearly everyone has said.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by tmp44

You know what amazes me???? You just admitted that the call was technically correct, but yet you still would call a block. I don't even know what to say to that.

That's my point, the tape don't lie, but the L guessed at it! Again that's my point! You can't guess in this business. You got to be for sure of your call. In this particular stitch, there was no, no calling this play. The OP was forced to blow his whistle, he had to have something on this play. If you are the L you have to have a call here. Now, my 2nd or 3rd point, I'm losing track, but if you are not sure, always take the defense. If I'm calling offense, there's no guessing.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Since I'm now clear that the requirement (as it relates to the feet) in order to establish LGP is that any part of the foot is touching the floor, would anybody be interested in discussing verticality, specifically does verticality have anything to do with whether this is a block or PC?

Disclaimer: The following is a question, not an opinion or an interpretation unless so stated. Any description of the event or non-event, the placement of the feet/hands/body of a player are for the sole purpose of thoroughly explaining the situation so that everything that might be important is included for the purpose of a through analysis.


In the frame of the video where the offensive player is airborne (both feet off of the floor), and the defensive player has both feet touching the floor, it's seems that the defensive player was positioned at an angle. I have been told (in a discussion that I believe occurred on this board) that verticality is essentially straight up from the floor from a natural stance.

While that is basically correct, verticality is ALL about being able to jump into or raise your hands into the space above you once you have LGP....not about establishing LGP.

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Because of the camera placement, the offensive player occludes our view of the defensive player, but is does seem as though the defensive player's body was still moving from left to right while the offensive player was airborne, and that the defensive player's body was still catching up with his momentum when contact occurred.

Right there, you have all you need to know about the left-right movement. If, when the shooter left the ground, the defender's torso was in the path of the shooter, the defender has position. In this case, we were looking at the back of the shooter. If you can't see the defender, he could only have been in the path of the shooter. If there is still a little left-right movement, it doesn't matter...he's already there. He doesn't have to be stone still, just in the path before shooter jumps.

Originally Posted by jmaellis

Does vertically play any part in whether or not this is a block or a PC? If it does, from where does the vertical boundary begin on each side of the defensive player's body?

Not in this case unless the player was moving forward or brought his arms down over the shooter.

Verticality has nothing to do with lateral movement.

Originally Posted by jmaellis

If the boundaries of the vertical cylinder (I don't know of that is officialese, but it sounds descriptive for what I am trying to describe) begins on the outside of each foot and go straight up, that would be a lot of space in this scenario. In this case, if a line was drawn straight up from the outside of the defensive player's left foot where the foot was in contact with the court when the offensive player went airborne, and had the contact not occurred (for instance if the offensive player was one step slower), the defensive player would have continued in motion from left to right and ultimately would have occupied that space and the contact may not have ever occurred.

For verticality, imagine a flat wall between the defender and shooter right at the belly/face/arms of the defender...not a cylinder. If at the time of contact, the defender is pushing that wall forward, that player is not staying within his vertical space.

EDIT: In fact, if you imagine the wall shifting such that it is alway between the defender and shooter, you can even use it for situations where the shooter is going by the defender. In that case, if the defender is pushing the wall towards the shooter at the time of contact, they've lost LGP and get a block.

Again, it about the defender getting their body into the path before the shooter jumps...even if the defender is still moving. Any additional lateral movement will either be neutral or will lessen the contact.