Watta ya got video?

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by tomegun

You are overthinking; the ball was right in front of him and he made the correct call. Also, I don't think it was anywhere in his mind to hurry up and get in the camera shot. I think you are worrying too much about the camera and not concerning yourself with the fact that the play was right in front of the L.

And I'm overthinking??? But I digress........

I too, officiate in Washington state, and the reason I made the comments I did was because that is how our association handles 'drives to the basket', from either wing. It was a point of emphasis in every pre-game of every varsity contest I did this year. L to have a patient whistle on a crash from a drive from either wing, C or T having first crack due to play originating from their primary. I never said that L should not have a whistle on such a play. I was just asking RD if their crew was applying that same philosophy or not.

Thanks for YOUR concern though, tomegun.

[mj]

I got....

A player control foul in the first video.

A no call in the second.

And no comment on Old School's posts................

Good job, Rookie.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If you owned a basketball rule book...any basketball rule book....you would have known that "habitual motion" and an "airborne shooter" are completely different concepts. You would also have known that "habitual motion" is completely irrelevant in this or any play as to whether it was a block or a charge.

JR, I want you to think about this real good before you respond again. If I didn't have a rulebook, how would I know about the term Habitual Motion? Gotcha!!!! Ahhh..., one more thing, H/M is irrelevent to any play? Damn man, you must have drunk more of that Kool-Aid than I originally thought.

Seriously, I got another philosophy on this call for all of you. At a recent camp, I was told that as the Lead, you don't watch the feet. As the Lead, you have from the waste up. Now, if you are the Lead making this call, and you are basing your decision on the fact that the defender got his feet down and set before the offensive players feet left the floor, you are watching the wrong thing. Plus, in order to make that determination at that precise time at real time speed is at best a guess. Judging that you are making that decision from the players feet. Now if you are watching the play from the waste up and judging this, you will see that the offensive player has a open path to the bucket, at the last minute a defender moves in. From real time speed, you can't undercut the player once he's started his shooting motion. So I'm saying that if the call comes from the Lead who watching from the waste up, the only possible call you can have is a defensive block, imho. Now we go back and review the film, the film shows the defender did get there in time and it was in fact PC. In real time, you can't make that call from the Lead and the reason is you don't have enough information, you are guessing at PC.

Let's breifly talk a minute about the contact to the torso. There was no contact to the torso. The player got there too late. The contact on the play was from the undercut and the offensive player fell down from this. If I'm watching waste up, there was no contact to the chest. That's what I need to see to rule PC from the L. Easy call, block, 2 shots, game over.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

What other association agrees with you? Please name the association.

The National Basketball Association you moron!!! To sum up, you need to really lay off that kool-aid.

[Almost Always Right]

(In referrence to the 1st video)
If they pre-gamed that they were going behind their head all night on anything close - Then they got it right.
If they pre-gamed to the hips all night then they got it wrong.
If they went to the head on everything else that night, they got it right.
If they went to the hips all night, they got it wrong.
Personally - I feel that the defender had not established(both feet while facing) and therefore the bucket is good and we are shooting one. However, I reserve the right to reference earlier material posted in this response!!

[zebraman]

Old School will be performing two shows nightly all week... at 7 PM and 10 PM. Don't forget to tip your server. Thanks for coming folks.... rim shot......

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

Well, pardon me that I don't follow your rules blindly into oblivion. God gave me a brain and the ability to reason. I am in disagreement with the Fed. on this rule, if this is in fact the rule. In my games, I will not allow a secondary defender, to run up under a player who is about to go airborne. I consider that, too big of an advantage to the defense. Logically speaking, the offensive player had an open lane to the basket. Plus 1 to the offensive. The defensive player realizes he's out of position on this play and immediately runs over to protect the rim. (Plus another 1 to the offense). It is not the offensive player fault that the back door is open. IOW, not penalizing the offensive team for a defensive letdown. Completely different story if defender is standing there from the jump. And finally, we talk about habitual motion. When is the player in the act of shooting. Once the player starts his H/M, he is now in the act of shooting. Defensive player runs underneath him, easy block call. Offensive player is allowed to return to the floor.

I will admit, I have read the NBA code, and maybe I am somewhat bias to this play from an NBA prospective. I'm going to side on the NBA on this one because it just makes better basketball since to me. I am also not refereeing by milliseconds or split-seconds. That is cutting it too close for my comfort and I can not consistently call a game by milliseconds. What I mean is that, if in order to determine if I am right or wrong, it comes down to a split-second. Half the time I'm going to be right and half the time I'm going to guess wrong, because if we're talking split-second, I'm guessing. Notice how the OP was not sure he made the right call until he went back and watched the film afterwards. If I have to go to a monitor to determine if I made the correct call, and that comes down to a split-second, then I'm totally guessing. In this stitch, he got lucky making that call.

IMO, that's a block. The defense is given to huge of an advantage here when they where in fact the ones that erred. You can't cover the entire court. So I guess I did not attend your class. However, I do not believe that my analogy is horse manure because another association agrees with me too, and I know they don't want that called an offensive foul in college men's. Restricted area, lower block to the basket, especially if the play originates from the top, which this play did.

BTW, what's a Padawan Learner??

Old School:

What are you advocating is not "old school." What I am telling you is how the rules committees have wanted it called for at least 50 years, and I have been a boys'/girls' H.S. official for 36 years, women's college for 33 years, and men's college and FIBA for 14 years. What you are advocating is wrong and shows a lack of understanding of the rules and how and why they are written. I feel sorry for you.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Old School

JR, I want you to think about this real good before you respond again. If I didn't have a rulebook, how would I know about the term Habitual Motion? Gotcha!!!! Ahhh..., one more thing, H/M is irrelevent to any play?

No, he's saying habitual motion doesn't matter when it comes to a block/charge call. it only matters when deciding whether or not to count a shot when there's a foul by the defense. If you actually read the book instead of looking for terms to throw around, you'd know that. But, then again, reading comprehension can be difficult for some people.

Originally Posted by Old School

(blah blah blah) At a recent camp, I was told that as the Lead, you don't watch the feet. As the Lead, you have from the waste up. (blah blah blah)So I'm saying that if the call comes from the Lead who watching from the waste up, the only possible call you can have is a defensive block, imho. (blah blah blah) Easy call, block, 2 shots, game over.

All this to say, "I don't care about the rule, I think it should be a block."

Originally Posted by Old School

The National Basketball Association you moron!!!

Which would be relevant if the game in question were played under NBA rules; which it wasn't. Note, the NBA actually has a rule in place for this; but unless you're playing with a 24 second shot clock and calling defensive 3-seconds (among other differences), you can't base this call on where the player was standing.

Note the red in the above quote is a paraphrase.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

What are you advocating is not "old school." What I am telling you is how the rules committees have wanted it called for at least 50 years, and I have been a boys'/girls' H.S. official for 36 years, women's college for 33 years, and men's college and FIBA for 14 years. What you are advocating is wrong and shows a lack of understanding of the rules and how and why they are written. I feel sorry for you.

MTD, Sr.

Don't feel sorry for me, it's just my opinion. I totally understand the way NFHS wants this call. I just disagree with this particular play being a charge and I know I'm not the only referee that feels this way. I'm just the only referee that's got enough balls to stand my ground on this forum.

[Mark Dexter]

In reference to the first play posted (end of regulation) had to look at it in slo-mo myself, but I think the charge is right on.

If I'm standing there in real time, though - oy - not sure what I'd call (although L would have had a bit better view than that camera).

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by RookieDude

Ol' Rookie Dude had some tough calls this night...or tough no calls...and for you "no call" advocates...how do ya like this one?

Same game...2nd OT...15.2 seconds left...tie game...White team player dribbler A1 (was the set defender on the previous "charge" video)does he get shoulder past moving orange defender?...I'm Trail.

http://www.sportstricities.com/sport...-8574711c.html

Real hard to say from the opposite side of the court. My instinct is that I'd call this a PC foul, too, but you had the best view in the gym as to where the contact (if any) occurred!

PS - your mechanics are wonderfully sharp. I'm impressed.

Originally Posted by Old School

Don't feel sorry for me, it's just my opinion. I totally understand the way NFHS wants this call. I just disagree with this particular play being a charge and I know I'm not the only referee that feels this way. I'm just the only referee that's got enough balls to stand my ground.

Oy... I'd really hate to be a player who is supposed to be playing NFHS but gets the NBA rules instead. I'd hate to see you call a 1 shot Technical Foul just becaue the technical (although deserved) wasn't enough to warrant 2 shots (that penalty is OBVIOUSLY too harsh).

You can't pick and choose the rules you want - when you are reffing NFHS you use the NFHS rules.

Out of curiousity, if you were to ref a FIBA game would you not call the over and back violation on a throw in from the front court just because you don't like it?!?

[jmaellis]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I reviewed my posts. I disagreed with your interpretation and understanding of the guarding rule. Still do.

The problem was, and still is, that I didn't have an interpretation or an understanding when I originally posted; I had a question. So for your benefit, so you don't flip out in the future I will be extra careful to include some sort of statement that my post is either a question or an opinion, so you won't be confused.

'Nuff said from me. Simply ignore in the future.

I'm here to learn, not ignore, so in the future I will simply filter the nonsense.(BTW the ignore comment regarding JRutledge is a joke relating to a different thread)

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

And I'm overthinking??? But I digress........

I too, officiate in Washington state, and the reason I made the comments I did was because that is how our association handles 'drives to the basket', from either wing. It was a point of emphasis in every pre-game of every varsity contest I did this year. L to have a patient whistle on a crash from a drive from either wing, C or T having first crack due to play originating from their primary. I never said that L should not have a whistle on such a play. I was just asking RD if their crew was applying that same philosophy or not.

Thanks for YOUR concern though, tomegun.

And what does your pregame include regarding a drive to the basket when there's a crash with a secondary defender? IMO, Nevada got it correct in post #54.

[canuckref]

first play: d has lgp (doesn't matter if both feet are on the floor according to ncaa rules) great call.

second play: good no call, player flopped

nice job under tremendous pressure

[JugglingReferee]

Great video!

I know I'm probably behind most fo the discussion as I decided to post without reading the response of everyone else, and the thread is already 80+ posts.

I have a player control foul. Seocnd foot was barely down before it's time restriction for a PC.

Not sure if this was posted:

2nd OT dying seconds drive by visitors

Anyone have a PC here as well?