Watta ya got video?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

1) JR, I want you to think about this real good before you respond again. If I didn't have a rulebook, how would I know about the term Habitual Motion? Gotcha!!!!

2) Seriously, I got another philosophy on this call for all of you. At a recent camp, I was told that as the Lead, you don't watch the feet. As the Lead, you have from the waste up. Now, if you are the Lead making this call, and you are basing your decision on the fact that the defender got his feet down and set before the offensive players feet left the floor, you are watching the wrong thing. Plus, in order to make that determination at that precise time at real time speed is at best a guess. Judging that you are making that decision from the players feet. Now if you are watching the play from the waste up and judging this, you will see that the offensive player has a open path to the bucket, at the last minute a defender moves in. From real time speed, you can't undercut the player once he's started his shooting motion. So I'm saying that if the call comes from the Lead who watching from the waste up, the only possible call you can have is a defensive block, imho. Now we go back and review the film, the film shows the defender did get there in time and it was in fact PC. In real time, you can't make that call from the Lead and the reason is you don't have enough information, you are guessing at PC.

Let's breifly talk a minute about the contact to the torso. There was no contact to the torso. The player got there too late. The contact on the play was from the undercut and the offensive player fell down from this. If I'm watching waste up, there was no contact to the chest. That's what I need to see to rule PC from the L. Easy call, block, 2 shots, game over.

3) The National Basketball Association you moron!!!

1) Great. Now explain to us exactly what the "habitual motion" rule says and means. Then...cite it from the NFHS rule book verbatim. That means word-for-word. You'll find it on p.39. What does case book play 6.7COMMENT say about it? That's on p.50 of the case book. Please cite that word-for-word also. If you don't cite both......GOTCHA!!!!

2) Seriously, again that ties for the dumbest post ever made on this forum.If you had ever really gone to a basketball officials camp, you might actually have found out that the philosophy you're trying to describe applies to covering a stationary shooter under the board from the Lead, not a defender. You must have overheard a conversation between real officials, but failed to comprehend what they were saying. What you're basically saying is "DON"T referee the defense". Somehow, that doesn't really surprise me.

3) Moron? You're trying to use an NBA rule to call a high school play, and I'm a moron?

[M&M Guy]

As soon as Bob gives me the ok...

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

Don't feel sorry for me, it's just my opinion. I totally understand the way NFHS wants this call. I just disagree with this particular play being a charge and I know I'm not the only referee that feels this way. I'm just the only referee that's got enough balls to stand my ground on this forum.

Old School:

Fine you disagree with the NFHS, NCAA and FIBA. I do not care. If you are going to call it the way you want to call it and not the correct way, then get the heck out of basketball officiating. You are doing a disservice to the game if you refuse the apply the rules correctly.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Old School

JR, I want you to think about this real good before you respond again. If I didn't have a rulebook, how would I know about the term Habitual Motion? Gotcha!!!! Ahhh..., one more thing, H/M is irrelevent to any play? Damn man, you must have drunk more of that Kool-Aid than I originally thought.

Seriously, I got another philosophy on this call for all of you. At a recent camp, I was told that as the Lead, you don't watch the feet. As the Lead, you have from the waste up. Now, if you are the Lead making this call, and you are basing your decision on the fact that the defender got his feet down and set before the offensive players feet left the floor, you are watching the wrong thing. Plus, in order to make that determination at that precise time at real time speed is at best a guess. Judging that you are making that decision from the players feet. Now if you are watching the play from the waste up and judging this, you will see that the offensive player has a open path to the bucket, at the last minute a defender moves in. From real time speed, you can't undercut the player once he's started his shooting motion. So I'm saying that if the call comes from the Lead who watching from the waste up, the only possible call you can have is a defensive block, imho. Now we go back and review the film, the film shows the defender did get there in time and it was in fact PC. In real time, you can't make that call from the Lead and the reason is you don't have enough information, you are guessing at PC.

Let's breifly talk a minute about the contact to the torso. There was no contact to the torso. The player got there too late. The contact on the play was from the undercut and the offensive player fell down from this. If I'm watching waste up, there was no contact to the chest. That's what I need to see to rule PC from the L. Easy call, block, 2 shots, game over.

The National Basketball Association you moron!!! To sum up, you need to really lay off that kool-aid.

Old School:

If you are not officiating the defense, you are most definitely not watching the correct thing.

MTD, Sr.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Old School:

If you are not officiating the defense, you are most definitely not watching the correct thing.

MTD, Sr.

I agree...there is no way this "crash" should be called by the T...The T should have primary defender to the hole and there was none...Secondary defender stepping in should be the L and he got it right....I see no problem here with the L being able to determine if he has both feet down or not (which he did) especially if he is working off the end line a bit. As far as the contact not being with the torso....it may have not been with the torso but definitely to the torso....he was there.

I believe the "watching the feet" reference is referring to the fact that the out official can help with watching the feet of an offensive player when in the paint while the lead watches waist up, not watching the defensive player's feet.

As said earlier....great call, they don't get any closer than that.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by BLydic

And what does your pregame include regarding a drive to the basket when there's a crash with a secondary defender? IMO, Nevada got it correct in post #54.

To be honest, the whole complexity of a secondary, or even a third defender, etc. never came in the discussions. Plain and simple, C or T has the drive to the bucket and first crack at any collision/contact. The C or T absolutely may decide that they have nothing, but if the L sees something that warrants a whistle, then by all means, come in and get it. That's the luxury of the 3 person.

Again, I am not questioning RD making this call.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Great. Now explain to us exactly what the "habitual motion" rule says and means. Then...cite it from the NFHS rule book verbatim. That means word-for-word. You'll find it on p.39. What does case book play 6.7COMMENT say about it? That's on p.50 of the case book. Please cite that word-for-word also. If you don't cite both......GOTCHA!!!!

Now why would I even attempt to explain anything to you. You already know it all, and I also know that you don't like it when I use your own tactics on you. Bully's don't like to be bully back. Here's the deal, I know what it means and I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I just state my opinion and my position and that's that. It's not changing JR. Now if you want to come behind that with your throw the ref under the bus tactic's, that's all on you.

Now, one thing I noticed that has not been bought up yet. It is my opinion that only an official would recognize this. And since JR is questioning my ability as an official. I think I will bring it up now. The red team got screwed. If you're going to call an offensive foul for the play of the game, then you have to call an offensive foul on the 2nd video in OT. That's called being consistent, and in fact it was the same referee. If you observe the video, the red defensive player obtained LGP perfectly, the white team player ran right thru him. If that's a PC under the basket, then this is a PC at the top because the offensive player did not try to go around him. Consistently is the key here people. Refereeing is about being consistent and if I'm going to call one an offensive foul then I got to call the second one an offensive foul too, because looking at the defense he had established LGP and it is okay to turn or duck to avoid contact. The guy ducked back to prevent the contact under the rim.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

To be honest, the whole complexity of a secondary, or even a third defender, etc. never came in the discussions. Plain and simple, C or T has the drive to the bucket and first crack at any collision/contact. The C or T absolutely may decide that they have nothing, but if the L sees something that warrants a whistle, then by all means, come in and get it. That's the luxury of the 3 person.

Again, I am not questioning RD making this call.

I agree that the L or C takes it to the hole IF there is a primary defender on the ball....In this specific situation I think it's the lead's call all the way (IMHO)....In addition, the play occurred in L's primary which causes me to give the L first dibs if I'm the T.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

To be honest, the whole complexity of a secondary, or even a third defender, etc. never came in the discussions. Plain and simple, C or T has the drive to the bucket and first crack at any collision/contact.

Not true....the T/C have primary coverage all the way in for players involved in the play all the way in. When the defender comes from somewhere else, the official covering that area has primary coverage. The T/C will NOT have a good look at a defender coming into the picture at the last second.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Now why would I even attempt to explain anything to you. You already know it all, and I also know that you don't like it when I use your own tactics on you. Bully's don't like to be bully back. Here's the deal, I know what it means and I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. I just state my opinion and my position and that's that. It's not changing JR. Now if you want to come behind that with your throw the ref under the bus tactic's, that's all on you.

Wouldn't it have been easier to just say "You're right, JR. I don't have a clue what habitual motion means. That's because I don't own a rule book and never have owned a rule book"?

Not that everybody hasn't already figured that out........

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Not true....the T/C have primary coverage all the way in for players involved in the play all the way in. When the defender comes from somewhere else, the official covering that area has primary coverage. The T/C will NOT have a good look at a defender coming into the picture at the last second.

Agree. That's exactly how RookieDude covered it too.

[Vinski]

Alright, keeping in mind that I am a rookie, I have a question about the popular opinion of the 2nd video. This appears to be a charge to me, but most think this is a no-call. I’m sure we all agree that LGP is initialized. If this is not a charge, when did the defender loose LPG before the contact? Please don’t yell at me, just a poor innocent rookie trying to learn.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Alright, keeping in mind that I am a rookie, I have a question about the popular opinion of the 2nd video. This appears to be a charge to me, but most think this is a no-call. I’m sure we all agree that LGP is initialized. If this is not a charge, when did the defender loose LPG before the contact? Please don’t yell at me, just a poor innocent rookie trying to learn.

Is it the one dribbling along the sideline..it that's the one then it looks to me like a flop (contact didn't cause the defensive player to fall over). IMO...unless there is a video that I missed.

[Vinski]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Is it the one dribbling along the sideline..it that's the one then it looks to me like a flop (contact didn't cause the defensive player to fall over). IMO...unless there is a video that I missed.

Ahhh... So you are saying that there really wasn't any contact to speak off. If that's the case then I'm on board. However, kinda looks like a bit more contact than that from the camera angle. That ref would have had the best view.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by Vinski

Ahhh... So you are saying that there really wasn't any contact to speak off. If that's the case then I'm on board. However, kinda looks like a bit more contact than that from the camera angle. That ref would have had the best view.

If I'm looking at the video you are referring to......that's my opinion....