Overtime Chaos

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As already answered above, when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today?

[Texas Aggie]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

when the ball becomes live you've now got more than 5 team members participating. Technical foul when the ball is released on the jump by the R as per NFHS rule 10-1-6PENALTY.

Correct. Since "participating" isn't specifically defined, and there isn't a case book play specifically on point, a reasonable interp of the rule is that the 5 team members are participating when the ball becomes live.

Interestingly, in football, the (NCAA) rule for the often used phrase, "too many men on the field" is either a 15 yard illegal participation foul if they are actually participating, or a 5 yard illegal substitution foul if they are busting *ss off the field (and don't quite make it!). Years ago, the fed rules stated in the comments to the rules (used to be at the end of the rules; now included in each rule, but slimmed down from what I recall) something to the effect of "minor technical (meaning letter of the law rather than rule 10 specific) infractions should be ignored if they are inadvertent and have no bearing on the game." Does anyone believe that if a player realizes he's the sixth man on the floor, leaves during the toss but doesn't quite make it all the way off, and this doesn't affect the opponent at all, that we should just ignore it? In this situation, the officials had full knowledge of the player leaving.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You do realize that this is inconsistent with the stance you took on the similar throw-in situation in another thread today?

Yup, I knew that when I posted it.

[jontheref]

Mark's got it right. If I am the R I will say something to the captain..."captain...do you have 5?" One of my U's in a three man has got to get me thumbs up or I'm not putting it up. If I am one of the U's --I will simply tell the coach --"count your players". He knows what I am talking about. At any rate, there isn't a way in the world that I am starting an OT with a T unless it is absolutely necessary.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by jontheref

Mark's got it right. If I am the R I will say something to the captain..."captain...do you have 5?" One of my U's in a three man has got to get me thumbs up or I'm not putting it up. If I am one of the U's --I will simply tell the coach --"count your players". He knows what I am talking about. At any rate, there isn't a way in the world that I am starting an OT with a T unless it is absolutely necessary.

Like I said earlier, the counting thing is small, but it does NOT make it easier - for me at least - to point and count.

What is up with all the subtle hints and beating around the bush? What is wrong with just telling the coach he/she has too many players on the court and one needs to go to the bench? I will use the indirect method if someone can give me a good reason to. Otherwise, there are way too many other things to worry about than being funny or subtle when it comes to too many players on the court. Also, if there are six players on the court it is everyone's (on the crew) fault.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Like I said earlier, the counting thing is small, but it does NOT make it easier - for me at least - to point and count.

What is up with all the subtle hints and beating around the bush? What is wrong with just telling the coach he/she has too many players on the court and one needs to go to the bench? I will use the indirect method if someone can give me a good reason to. Otherwise, there are way too many other things to worry about than being funny or subtle when it comes to too many players on the court. Also, if there are six players on the court it is everyone's (on the crew) fault.

I'm with Tom on this one. Count the players, if there are too many then tell the coach he/she needs to pull one off and then get on with the OT period.

[legend]

The start of O.T. is the same as the start of the game. Which means that just as in the pre-game player count, the O.T . player count goes to U-1(home), and U-2(visitors). This should be covered by the "R" in the pregame meeting, and we know the R doesn't toss til he gets a thumbs up from U-2 and U-1(who also confirms that the table is good to go prior to thumbs up), so eye contack is immeasurable here.

[bigdogrunnin]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

bigdogrunnin, I was offended greatly by your initial reply. If it wasn't intended to be degrading or demeaning, then I apologize sincerely for over reacting. We are all fellow Officials in the trenches every night. We get enough crap from everyone else without giving it to one another. For my comments, I retract, and I am sorry.

My original question is "at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?" If you have notified the coach, and stated that somebody has to go, which we did. At what point during the game is this a T?

1. When R enters the circle?
2. When R releases the toss?
3. When ball is tapped?
4. When possession is gained by either team?

Thank you for the apology, and NO I was NOT trying to be demeaning at all. In fact, my attempt at a little humor obviously went terribly wrong, and I apologize as well.

As for what to do . . . I go with #2. The ball becomes LIVE when the referee releases his toss, but to start a game, quarter, or overtime, this should never happen. There are 2-3 officials on the court, and if they are all doing their job (which you and your crew were), then everyone should have a quick count, get the OK's, and off we go.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

BV game, 3-man crew, 1st overtime. Preparing for jump to start OT. R is waiting outside center circle, U1 & U2 are in position for jump. Team A has six players on the floor ready for the toss. Team B coach is screaming for a technical foul against Team A. Team A coach gets A6 off the floor prior to Referee entering center circle for the toss. The question is, at what point during the the start of the OT, would you call this T?

Couple of things here. #1. If there are too many players on the court, and play begins, it is the referees fault period. Charge the technical to the offending team but we as a crew blew it. This should never happen and it's a little harder in football where you have to count up 11 players. #2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming. To do it before, he just let us know (before play became live) that we got too many, and yes, I will hold the game up and get the extra player off the court, no violation, thank you coach!

There was actually 3 things wrong here. Referees didn't notice too many players on the court, the opposing coach making everyone aware before the ball is in play and finally one of the coaches sending too many players out to start the OT. Wow! That was an interesting overtime.

[Junker]

First off, no way do you throw a T on this. There's plenty of time to sort things out before the ball goes live. As far as pointing, I was taught never to point while you count. I have heard officials get dinged for pointing and counting at camps. Personally, I think when you point while you count you look a little unsure of the game and also you call attention to the fact that you are counting. If you don't point, you can get your players counted without anyone even knowing you're doing it.

[FishinRef]

Old School
Couple of things here. #1. If there are too many players on the court, and play begins, it is the referees fault period. Charge the technical to the offending team but we as a crew blew it. This should never happen and it's a little harder in football where you have to count up 11 players. #2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming. To do it before, he just let us know (before play became live) that we got too many, and yes, I will hold the game up and get the extra player off the court, no violation, thank you coach!

There was actually 3 things wrong here. Referees didn't notice too many players on the court, the opposing coach making everyone aware before the ball is in play and finally one of the coaches sending too many players out to start the OT. Wow! That was an interesting overtime.

Just to clarify........ Referees DID notice too many players, Referees did advise players and coach. Referee held the toss until A6 got off the floor.

#2. If the coach was smart, he would not say anything until the toss is release, then he can start screaming.

My Point Exactly.

My reasoning for this post was to verify that we didn't miss something by Not Calling the T.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

But as for not pointing and counting, I guess all those D1 & D2 evaluators and assignors really don't know anything after all. All the evaluators and assignors I work with say, POINT AND COUNT so you are certain. I guess I shouldn't listen to the guys and gals who are giving me those games. Does an official HAVE to point and count, NO. Does it help when you have 10-12 players mingling around one another, YES!

Hey Bigdawg, which D1 & D2 conferences do you work that make you point as you count?

[Old School]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

Just to clarify........ Referees DID notice too many players, Referees did advise players and coach. Referee held the toss until A6 got off the floor.

My Point Exactly.

My reasoning for this post was to verify that we didn't miss something by Not Calling the T.

No, sounds like you nailed it to me. Good job!

[illinoisbluezeb]

Originally Posted by bigdogrunnin

Gotta agree with the previous posters. NO WAY am I giving a T for this. I look at Team A coach and say, "Coach, someone has to come off." End of discussion. Team B Coach can yell all he wants. My response, "Coach, that's enough." Now, to avoid this in the future . . .


While looking at the players on the floor, point your index finger toward ONE of the players and say ONE. Then proceed to point your index finger at a different player ON THE SAME TEAM, and say TWO. Repeat process for players 3, 4, and 5. THEN . . . repeat the SAME process for the opposing team's players (1-5). You should never have more than FIVE (5). IF you do, calmly ask the coach of the "almost offending" team to kindly remove one of his/her players. All-in-all should take about 7-10 seconds, but will save a lot of time later when you have to administer that Technical Foul that the Team B coach is yelling about. PREVENTATIVE OFFICIATING!

bigdogrunin I got a chuckle out of this , to me it was clear he was trying to be funny. Next time use or the which ever icon that fits the situation this helps clarify intended effect.

I had a situation where a team came out of the huddle after a TO and had 6 on the floor. I counted the players ( don't remeber if i pointed or not ) and came up with 6. I get the offending coaches attention and tell him he has 6 on the floor. The other coach comes up loudly complaining "You can't do that, you can't tell him he has 6 on the floor, your cheating!!!!" My response was "Your out of the box coach and that is cheating." He looks down then back up, smiles and returns to the bench, I tell him on the way back to my position that I try to avoid T's if i can.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Junker

First off, no way do you throw a T on this. There's plenty of time to sort things out before the ball goes live. As far as pointing, I was taught never to point while you count. I have heard officials get dinged for pointing and counting at camps. Personally, I think when you point while you count you look a little unsure of the game and also you call attention to the fact that you are counting. If you don't point, you can get your players counted without anyone even knowing you're doing it.

I hadn't thought about this before, but pointing while counting could have some unintended consequences. They all know we do it, but it may set the expectation that if a 6-player T happens, it was the officials' fault.