Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[JTRICE]

http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm

See what you guys think about this.

[26 Year Gap]

Foul then whistle then buzzer then shot appears to be what the ruling is based upon.

[Adam]

Makes sense to me; I like it.

[Jurassic Referee]

I disagree with part of the ruling. What they did when they put a second back on the clock because of definite knowledge was correct--i.e. counting the basket and having 1 FT with 1 second on the clock and the teams lined up.

But...if they didn't have definite knowledge to put time back on the clock, then time ran out before the ball was in the air and the basket won't count. NFHS rule 6-7-6&7 & EXCEPTION(c). See the language in case book play 6.7SitC also- "The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does NOT expire before the ball is in flight". The rule cited- R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is not relevant because that exception only refers to a ball being in flight before the horn, not after the horn. In that case, A1 will be awarded 2 FT's with no time on the clock and no one lined up on the lanes. That's exactly what was being discussed in the other thread.

[Adam]

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

What if you see the clock as you blow the whistle and it does not read 00:00?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

In this situation, the only definite knowledge you have is that the shot was released before time should have expired, based on the fact that the whistle blew before the horn sounded. That’s enough knowledge to count the basket but not enough to put any time back on the clock.

Can you find a rule somewhere to back that up, and negate the specific language of the rules that I cited? A rule that says that you can count a basket even though the shot wasn't in the air when the horn went off?

If you can't put time back on the clock, by rule, then there isn't any rule extant that I know of that states you can just go ahead and ignore the horn. If you can find one, please cite it.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

But...if they didn't have definite knowledge to put time back on the clock, then time ran out before the ball was in the air and the basket won't count. NFHS rule 6-7-6&7 & EXCEPTION(c). See the language in case book play 6.7SitC also- "The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does NOT expire before the ball is in flight". The rule cited- R5-6-2EXCEPTION3 is not relevant because that exception only refers to a ball being in flight before the horn, not after the horn. In that case, A1 will be awarded 2 FT's with no time on the clock and no one lined up on the lanes. That's exactly what was being discussed in the other thread.

They do have definite knowlege that time had not run out. The whistle had sounded, but not the horn, therefore time had not run out, ipso facto. They have no definite knowlege of how much time was left, just that there was indeed some time left. This should be enough to allow the basket, and shoot the foul shot with the lane cleared. QED.

I would suggest that the ruling as posted on the district3hoops site is correct.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

They do have definite knowlege that time had not run out. The whistle had sounded, but not the horn, therefore time had not run out, ipso facto. They have no definite knowlege of how much time was left, just that there was indeed some time left. This should be enough to allow the basket, and shoot the foul shot with the lane cleared. QED.

I would suggest that the ruling as posted on the district3hoops site is correct.

So how does that fit in the wording of rule 5-10-1?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

They do have definite knowlege that time had not run out. The whistle had sounded, but not the horn, therefore time had not run out, ipso facto. They have no definite knowlege of how much time was left, just that there was indeed some time left. This should be enough to allow the basket, and shoot the foul shot with the lane cleared. QED.

I would suggest that the ruling as posted on the district3hoops site is correct.

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

[JTRICE]

[QUOTE=JTRICE]http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm


I have read all this discussion on this situation. Just another note that the District 3 director said that this is not his interpretation but a NFHS interpretation. So.... expect to see it soon on the NFHS web site.

Secondly, if you look at the District 3 web site again you will notice that it DOES say what to do if the three officials are not sure how much time to put back on the clock but that they are sure it was foul-buzzer-shot. What you are supposed to do (according to NFHS) is to count the basket and shoot the foul shot with noone lined up on the lane.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=JTRICE]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm


I have read all this discussion on this situation. Just another note that the District 3 director said that this is not his interpretation but a NFHS interpretation. So.... expect to see it soon on the NFHS web site.

Secondly, if you look at the District 3 web site again you will notice that it DOES say what to do if the three officials are not sure how much time to put back on the clock but that they are sure it was foul-buzzer-shot. What you are supposed to do (according to NFHS) is to count the basket and shoot the foul shot with noone lined up on the lane.

"Foul shot"- singular. Iow, they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went. Again, that ruling goes directly against the language of rule 6-7-7&EXCEPTION(c).

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong. Until that time, I still don't believe that there is any rules backing extant to count the basket, and I certainly haven't seen any rules backing posted here to date that would cause me to re-think my position.

[just another ref]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

...... they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went.

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong.

I'm with you on this one, JR. I see no need to concede that we are wrong no matter what comes down in the future. This is a good and logical argument that everyone makes about what is reasonable and how is should be and "I know the whistle came before the horn," and all the rest. But, for the time being, as you have so vigorously pointed out,
it is not supported by rule.

By the way, has anybody ever seen this actually happen?
Try starts...foul....buzzer....release. I have not.

[Grail]

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Grail

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.