Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[just another ref]

Much emphasis is put on being consistent in making a call throughout the game, from start to finish. If it's a foul in the first quarter, it's a foul in the last 2 minutes, etc. Following that line of reasoning, according to some arguments in this thread, there is a "timing error" every time the whistle blows. Should we look quickly at the clock to try to read the time on every whistle? It would be easier most of the game, without the tenths showing.
So, conceivably, every time a travel is called at 4:52 remaining in the third quarter, we may need to reset the clock to 4:53.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

But it's still a legitimate case play! If Congress wanted to change a law, but forgets to actually propose an ammendment to a bill, you don't just say "well, a few other laws have changed, so this one has, too."

Second, I believe that the plays have nothing to do with lag time. If they did, then there would be two or three parts to each situation - one where the whistle blew with more than 1.0 second on the clock, one where the whistle blew with 0.9 or less on the clock, and one where the ref blew the whistle then the ref looked up at the clock.

Read my post above (#111). Due to the logic given in the case play, I've flipped sides on this. If we don't have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock, then we can't put any back on. By rule, time has expired. When did it expire? Just before the shot was released.

I agree with JR that by rule, you can't count the hoop unless you are able to legally put time back on the clock. If one official looks up at the clock at the whistle and sees time, then we can put the time on and score the hoop; because time hasn't actually expired.

Adam

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Much emphasis is put on being consistent in making a call throughout the game, from start to finish. If it's a foul in the first quarter, it's a foul in the last 2 minutes, etc. Following that line of reasoning, according to some arguments in this thread, there is a "timing error" every time the whistle blows. Should we look quickly at the clock to try to read the time on every whistle? It would be easier most of the game, without the tenths showing.
So, conceivably, every time a travel is called at 4:52 remaining in the third quarter, we may need to reset the clock to 4:53.

I'll need to check, but I believe the Fed has specifically stated that this rule change is designed for end-of-quarter scenarios. They're higher profile, and a timing error that goes unfixed can actually decide a game. So, by rule, you could look up and fix the clock at 4:53 in the first quarter. However, you would be spending a lot of time working ms ball wondering why you can't get that varsity break. However, ignoring a 1 second difference with 6 seconds left may have the same effect.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'll need to check, but I believe the Fed has specifically stated that this rule change is designed for end-of-quarter scenarios.

Where do you check? Specifically what is the change and when was it changed? So far the only thing I have read about a change is at Catawba River, and I don't know where that is.

[Adam]

From NFHS.ORG, the comments on rules revisions:

LAG TIME ELIMINATED (5-10-1): This change eliminates the need for lag time or reaction time on the part of the clock operator. The referee may put the exact time observed by an official back on the game clock. The committee felt that with new clock technology and the ability to observe tenths of a second, when an official has definite knowledge relative to the time involved, he/she should have the ability to put the correct time on the game clock.

Not exactly what I was looking for. Note, however, the mention of reaction time being no longer needed as well as lag time. Tomorrow at work, I'll keep looking for the comments I remember regarding the end of quarter/game intent behind this change.

(edit) I need a break. I just found it, at the page linked to in the OP, with the interpretation we've been debating so viciously.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Read my post above (#111). Due to the logic given in the case play, I've flipped sides on this. If we don't have definite knowledge of how much time to put back on the clock, then we can't put any back on. By rule, time has expired. When did it expire? Just before the shot was released.

I agree with JR that by rule, you can't count the hoop unless you are able to legally put time back on the clock. If one official looks up at the clock at the whistle and sees time, then we can put the time on and score the hoop; because time hasn't actually expired.

Adam

Consider the following situation:

A, down 1 with 2:00 to go in overtime has the ball for a throwin. The ball is thrown in (the clock starts properly). A, wanting to hold the ball for the last shot has A2 hold the ball near midcourt with no defenders within 6ft.

After approximately 8-10 seconds, the horn sounds as a result of the timer who is with team B accidentially (or deliberately) hitting a button that resets the clock to 0:01.

No official was looking at the clock because there was no reason to be looking at the clock at that moment. Since the the ball was in the frontcourt, there was no closely guarded situation, and nearly two minutes should have been on the clock, no official is tracking the clock.

By the rules as interpreted by Jurrassic, et.al., since no official knows the exact time that needs to be on the clock, no correction can be made....no time could be put back on the clock. The game is over. A loses.

Does this make any sense at all? If you are to interpret the rules so literally, you'd have to let the game end with B winning in this situation. This is a case of time running out (on the clock anyway) and the horn sounding when it did so when no correction can, by rule, be made. Do you really believe that this is the intent of the timing correction rule? The clock says 0:00, the horn sounded, no official knew the exact time.

Now I know every single one of you out there that does any decent level of ball is going to put time back on the clock in this case...knowing the spirit and intent of the rule, not the letter. You're not going to end a game 2 minutes early because of a timer error.

Now, take this to the last second shot. It is the intent of the rules that the clock stop on the whistle and that the shooter be allowed to complete the shot if fouled while in the act of shooting. The whole point about the ball becoming dead when the horn sounds is based on the expectation that time expires properly, not in error.

[Kelvin green]

I am going to chime in here...

1) As I have heard from several referees, this is the ONLY PLAY IN TOWN. repeat ONLY! Of all the plays in the game this is the one that has to be right. if you dont get it right, everybody and their dog with a video tape will complain and they will be right. Unfortunately no matter how hard we quote the rule book and attempt to justify that the ruling is wrong, the ruling is exactly right.

The ball is shot, the whistle blew, The clock did not stop on the whistle (this is no different than any other paly where the clock does not stop on a foul or violation)The horn going off , in my mind, is irrelevant.

We have got to get this play right. If I am on this floor, I think I would be blowing the whistle and making sure I pick up the clock.

2) No where in the rule book does it state that definite knowledge means staring at the clock. You have other senses you can use. I can tell yo that I had definite knowledge that the whistle blew before the clock, I know plenty of officials that can differentiate between 1 second and 1 tenth and most places in between.

3) Long before the use of video at the sideline the NBA has set the precedent and used this for years. No matter what you think of the league, when NFHS or NCAA follows something that NBA has used for years, we end up using thier interpretations because they have been thru it. NFHS has not had an original thought (except for maybe the fashion police crap) on a basketball rule for years. NFHS is always the last one to adopt changes in rules that have trickled down...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

.

No where in the rule book does it state that definite knowledge means staring at the clock.

.

1) New (this year) NFHS case book play 5.10.1SitC says that definite knowledge is looking at the clock when you blow your whistle. Other case plays link definite knowledge to knowing how much time is on the clock when a play starts and the clock doesn't, and having an officia's count going when the clock was started/not started improperly. That all ties all in with the language of R5-10.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Now, take this to the last second shot. It is the intent of the rules that the clock stop on the whistle and that the shooter be allowed to complete the shot if fouled while in the act of shooting. The whole point about the ball becoming dead when the horn sounds is based on the expectation that time expires properly, not in error.

If the shooter is fouled with 0.2/0.3 seconds on the clock just as he's gathered the ball, are you telling me that it's the intent of the rules to allow that shooter to completely finish his shooting motion after that(step, bring his arms up, maybe double-pump and then shoot), even though that completion of the shooting motion after the foul might take a lot longer than 0.2/0.3 seconds? I can't agree with that.

Sorry, Camron, but it isn't that simplistic imo. It would be nice if it was...but it just isn't.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I agree with JR that by rule, you can't count the hoop unless you are able to legally put time back on the clock. If one official looks up at the clock at the whistle and sees time, then we can put the time on and score the hoop; because time hasn't actually expired.

I can't speak for JR, but my interpretation is that you can't count the basket whether you were looking at the clock or not.

Imagine telling a coach "sorry, buddy - you lost because I wasn't looking at the clock." Not a pretty sight, nor is there any rule support for it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

From NFHS.ORG, the comments on rules revisions:


Not exactly what I was looking for. Note, however, the mention of reaction time being no longer needed as well as lag time. Tomorrow at work, I'll keep looking for the comments I remember regarding the end of quarter/game intent behind this change.

(edit) I need a break. I just found it, at the page linked to in the OP, with the interpretation we've been debating so viciously.

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I can't speak for JR, but my interpretation is that you can't count the basket whether you were looking at the clock or not.

Imagine telling a coach "sorry, buddy - you lost because I wasn't looking at the clock." Not a pretty sight, nor is there any rule support for it.

There is rule support if you can put time back on the clock. We are specifically allowed to put time back with definite knowledge. Time can only expire ONCE per period. If I'm putting .4 back on the clock (due to my observing .4 on the clock when the whistle blew), time has not expired. If I don't have that knowledge we have an issue. If you argue that the official can't count the basket, even though he/she corrected the time, I'm not sure why you'd ever correct the time on the clock.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

I know. That was my admission that the comments weren't definitive.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Who wrote the interpretation in this link? With all due respect to the good people at the Catawba River Association, if I hadn't read it here, where would I have heard the interpretation. The books that we all have still say that the ball must be released prior to the buzzer.

I can't find a reference to the buzzer or horn in the applicable rule (6-7?)and I think that is where the difference of opinion is on this. I think that buzzer or horn doesn't equal expiration of time if we have definite knowledge that time hasn't expired and we put time back on the clock.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I can't speak for JR, but my interpretation is that you can't count the basket whether you were looking at the clock or not.

The case play says that the ball remains live after the whistle unless the shot isn’t released before time expires. If you’re putting time back on the clock, then time hasn’t expired for the quarter. If I can put time on the clock, I’m counting the bucket.

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Imagine telling a coach "sorry, buddy - you lost because I wasn't looking at the clock." Not a pretty sight, nor is there any rule support for it.

If his team loses, it’s because the kid couldn’t make the free throws.
“Coach, we have a shooting foul, and we’ll be shooting free throws. The shot was released after time expired, so the basket doesn’t count.”