Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Mark Dexter]

The elimination of lag time does not mean that the timer is expected to stop the clock immdiately when the whistle sounds. What it does mean is that when the referee has definite knowledge of the time that was remaining (not the fact that there was time remaining), the clock can be reset to that specific time. The rulebook supports the fact that timers can't always stop the clock perfectly in 5-6-2, Exceptions 2 & 3.

A few rules observations:

First, 6-7-6 states that the ball becomes dead when time expires. The exceptions to this rule only come into play if the shot has been released.

Second, 5-6-2 states that a period ends when the horn sounds. 1-14 further emphasizes that the "audible timer's signal" which indicates "that time has expired for a quarter or extra period."

Given those two points, if the shooter is holding the ball in his/her hands when the horn sounds, we have a dead ball.

Third, 5-1-1 states that a goal is scored when a live ball enters the goal. Since we have a dead ball as soon as the horn sounds (whether, ideally, it should have or not), the basket cannot be scored.

I believe that 5-6-2 exception 3 actually gives the best argument for why the goal should not count in this argument. The situation is nearly the same, but the rulebook specifically states that the ball is in the air before the horn sounds. If the rules committee wanted a shot to count after the buzzer, then this situation would have been mentioned in the rulebook or casebook itself.

Do I think this is fair? No. I believe that the clock should have stopped, therefore the shot should count. However, until the rule is changed, I'm waving off the shot.

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

They do have definite knowlege that time had not run out. The whistle had sounded, but not the horn, therefore time had not run out, ipso facto. They have no definite knowlege of how much time was left, just that there was indeed some time left. This should be enough to allow the basket, and shoot the foul shot with the lane cleared. QED.

I would suggest that the ruling as posted on the district3hoops site is correct.

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

[Camron Rust]

Just to play the devil's advocate a bit...

A few plays (that I made up) with rulings based on Jurrassic's views (as I understand them)...

With A down by 3 and the shot in the plays is for 2 points...

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock and the clock stops at 0.3, A1 then releases the shot (more than 0.3 seconds later), the shot goes in. Ruling: count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock but clock runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put 0.3 second on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref can't see the clock (or doesn't look at the clock) and it runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put no time on the clock, don't count the basket, no FT's, A loses.


In this last case, the ref KNOWS that the whistle clearly preceeded the horn, that the clock should have stopped with time left, that the shot would be during a live ball if the clock had been properly stopped, that team A should be on the line with a chance to tie the game. The only difference may be that the ref was at an angle to the clock where he/she couldn't see the exact time of the whistle....but it was clearly before the horn. Why should the shot depend in seeing the clock? I could see the argument for not putting time back up (but even that is debateable...I have a count in my head in all endgame situations just for that occurance that I'll use even if I can't see the clock), but waiving off the shot too??

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Point by point......

1) No, btaylor, you do not count the basket unless the ball was in the air BEFORE the horn. There is NOT now and there NEVER has been any rule that will allow you to do that. NFHS rules 6-7-6&7 and 6-7EXCEPTION(c) tell you different. If you can find rule(s) somewhere that will back up your statement above, then please cite it/them.

2) No, it sureasheck mean that you HAVE to put time back on the clock. You can only put time back on the clock if you're 118% sure of the EXACT time that must go back on the clock.You have to have DEFINITE knowledge to put time back on the clock. Says so right in NFHS rule 5-10-1. It don't matter a damn whether the clock should have stopped or not. If it didn't, you can't put any time back on unless you know the exact time that you need to put back on. There's no guessing allowed, and there never has been. In this particular situation, the officials did NOT have definite knowledge of how much time was on the clock when their whistle blew. That's why they can't go back and put ANY time on.

So you're saying that if I was "118%" sure and I did see how much was left I could put that time back on the clock and count the basket. No you're not saying that cause that play is not covered in the rulebook or casebook and that is all you seem to know. You wouldn't know about common sense officiating and doing what is fair and right for the players, and the game.

What about the Patrick Sparks 3 against Michigan State in the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. The rule book or officials manual one says that if you are unsure if a basket is a 2 or 3 it is considered a 2 point basket. Those guys even with replay, I guarantee you, could not determine if that was a 3 or not, but they used good common sense officiating and did what was right and fair for the game and kids and let that game go to overtime.

But I'm not going to argue the point with you anymore, as that is not what I come on here to do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

Rule 5-10
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.


If I say that 0.5 seconds elapsed between the whistle and the horn because I was counting, it is official. I don't have to see the clock in this case. I know that the whistle was the start of the interval and the end was signaled by the horn. If I counted that duration, I can fix it.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Just to play the devil's advocate a bit...

A few plays (that I made up) with rulings based on Jurrassic's views (as I understand them)...

With A down by 3 and the shot in the plays is for 2 points...

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock and the clock stops at 0.3, A1 then releases the shot (more than 0.3 seconds later), the shot goes in. Ruling: count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref sees 0.3 seconds on the clock but clock runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put 0.3 second on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT.

Play: A1 starts a shot, is fouled, whistle is blown, ref can't see the clock (or doesn't look at the clock) and it runs out, horn sounds, A1 then releases the shot, the shot goes in. Ruling: put no time on the clock, don't count the basket, no FT's, A loses.

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

What about the Patrick Sparks 3 against Michigan State in the NCAA tournament 2 years ago. The rule book or officials manual one says that if you are unsure if a basket is a 2 or 3 it is considered a 2 point basket. Those guys even with replay, I guarantee you, could not determine if that was a 3 or not, but they used good common sense officiating and did what was right and fair for the game and kids and let that game go to overtime.

No, the shot was ruled a 3 on the floor, and, lacking clear evidence on the video to change it, they left it unchanged.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

Why? If you're putting time on the clock, time didn't really expire. It was just a random horn.

If that were true, the home team should always let the clock run at the end of the game when the visiting team is trying to tie the game or take the lead on a last second shot.

[jeffpea]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

P.S. for any of the NCAA gurus - I seem to recall a bulletin a few years back which said that if you blew the whistle, then the horn went off, you would huddle, "figure out how much time was left," then put that back on the clock. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Can't seem to find the bulletin, but I can tell you this happened in a game two years ago (IU @ Purdue 1/15/05). Purdue fouled (whistle), horn, release, made basket. Officials checked the courside monitor to confirm foul occurred prior to expiration of time. They granted continuous motion and scored basket (which tied the game) and sent Purdue player to the line where he missed the game winning FT (IU eventually won 75-73 in 2OT's). I believe that the crew was suspended 1 game as a result of counting the basket.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

No you're not saying that cause that play is not covered in the rulebook or casebook and that is all you seem to know.

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Rule 5-10
ART. 2 . . . If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction.


If I say that 0.5 seconds elapsed between the whistle and the horn because I was counting, it is official. I don't have to see the clock in this case. I know that the whistle was the start of the interval and the end was signaled by the horn. If I counted that duration, I can fix it.

Um yeah, agreed......but I'm talking about officials who don't have an official's count and don't have a clue re: how much time to put back on the clock. Rule 5-10-1 says that they can't put any time back on the clock, lacking definite information of some kind. Agree?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

Which ones again?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um yeah, agreed......but I'm talking about officials who don't have an official's count and don't have a clue re: how much time to put back on the clock. Rule 5-10-1 says that they can't put any time back on the clock, lacking definite information of some kind. Agree?

I do think the rules suggest that the official must have some idea of a time to put back but it seems very inconsistent and unfair to both kill the bucket AND not put time back. That time could be as little as 0.1 second.

The bucket should count, IMHO, even if the ref doesn't put time back on the clock.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Why? If you're putting time on the clock, time didn't really expire. It was just a random horn.

If that were true, the home team should always let the clock run at the end of the game when the visiting team is trying to tie the game or take the lead on a last second shot.

Time did expire, though. Ideally, it wouldn't have, but it did. This is not analagous to the scorer buzzing the horn with 6:15 to go because of an illegal substitution.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The bucket should count, IMHO, even if the ref doesn't put time back on the clock.

The problem is though that you have to have rules backing to count the bucket. Or do you?

It isn't a question of what's "fair". It's a question of what the rules will let you do. If you count that basket, how do you then explain it when the coach that lost the game because you counted the basket puts in a complaint? Think of the poor assignor that has to answer that one, without lying..