No time out left, or do I

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bronco

While it is commendable to keep track of these things on your own, the official book is the official book. It doesn't matter if your asst. coach was more accurate, if there is a dispute about these things the official book takes precedence. So I am not sure how this could effectively prevent problems where the official book has incorrect information on fouls, TOs, etc.

This is why the visiting team's score book should sit next to the official book when possible. At the very least you will not go several minutes without a problem being addressed in a timely matter. You can always refer to other books if a mistake is know by the officials and obvious. You do not just have to go with the official book at all costs. You only go only with the official book when a mistake cannot be found and when the mistake was made.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Quote:


You sure?

Quote:

Yep, that's what the rule says, Dan.
As for whatever the scorekeeper indicates, I was taught NEVER to leave the game in the hands of the table. Plus with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook, so it doesn't matter what the scorer says, it matters what the referee knows.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As for whatever the scorekeeper indicates, I was taught NEVER to leave the game in the hands of the table. Plus with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook, so it doesn't matter what the scorer says, it matters what the referee knows.

So are you saying that during a game you keep up with this kind of information yourself? # of timeouts, etc.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

So are you saying that during a game you keep up with this kind of information yourself? # of timeouts, etc.

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)
Try it, and see if you like it.

@ two of the DI camps I went to the past summer the clinician's were big on knowing the foul totals, foul trouble players, AP, and partners whistles. Not withstanding I have worked real hard to be able to do this for the most part without thinking to much about it. I have never tried to know or keep the teams time outs. I just always assumed that the table has this covered. After this discussion I can half way see keeping it.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

Play by play is used @ both the High school & NCAA level. Your right the official is more likely to make a mistake. The official may think that there is a mistake. He/she can check all books and even play by play. Play by play will have knowledge of when the time outs were taken.If the official can validate the mistake then he can change it. Most likely if play by play has a error then one of the other books will have it as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Play by play is used @ both the High school & NCAA level.

The only time I have seen a play by play during a HS game is during the state finals or the rare occasion a school has a very good media department (only one school I can think of). Even at the college level you do not see many play by play logs. You must have some really good school programs.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The only time I have seen a play by play during a HS game is during the state finals or the rare occasion a school has a very good media department (only one school I can think of). Even at the college level you do not see many play by play logs. You must have some really good school programs.

Peace

We do. Your right in the fact it not as common at the HS level but increases every year. Just about ever college game I do has play by play. Your more likley not to have it @ the DIII, but usually, will just about always have it @ the DII level and will have it always @ DI.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id
Well you have options. If you think you have information that is contrary to the book then you can check with the books kept by both teams, or you can check with play by play. If either of these don't work then you have to go with what the official book says. If the book is any good then they would have marked the time out's called and in what quarter, check the book.

Ultimately you will have to go with the official book if you haven't found any information that contradicts the official book.

I don't agree.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Play by play? What kind of games are we talking about here?

My idea on all this has always been is it worth my while to keep up with any of this if I have no authority to change it if I do see a mistake. Timeouts are a good example. They are writing it down. How are you keeping up? Who is more likely to make a mistake? A guy with a watch always knows what time it is.
A guy with two watches is never quite sure.

You DO have the authority to make the changes.

The timer and scorer are there to ASSIST the referee and the umpire(s), not to dictate to them. The referee has the final say, not the official scorebook.

2-11-11 "...If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise."

If I have confidence in my count, I'm going to overrule the scorer. I'll take the responsibility upon myself. That's just me, others may not do that.

[just another ref]

2-11-11 refers to a discrepancy between two books. If you say one thing and both books agree on something else, do you still have the authority to overrule?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

2-11-11 refers to a discrepancy between two books. If you say one thing and both books agree on something else, do you still have the authority to overrule?

In my opinion, YES. Let me give you an example.
My partner reports a foul very quickly on White FOUR -- FIVE. The table mishears him because of how fast he spoke and moved his fingers. Both the home and visiting scorers record the foul as White FIVE.
Two minutes later when W5 fouls again we are told that he has fouled out. The coach complains, the kid complains, I talk to my partner and he is sure that the last two fouls that he called were not on White FIVE.
Despite both books agreeing, the referee can make the change. The bottom line is to get it right. Sometimes you have to take on some extra responsibility and even step on some toes and hurt some feelings to do that.

BTW that play really happened to me. We actually had sent W5 out of the game for a couple of minutes until the next foul occurred. It happened to be on White 45 and the scorer said that it was only his fourth. At that point, both my partner and I were sure what had happened. I was very confident that I knew his foul total. I had five for this player. The kid said it was his fifth, his coach said that it was his fifth, and the OPPOSING coach even said so. We changed the foul from 5 to 45, disqualified 45 and brought 5 back into the game. It was the right thing to do.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

BTW that play really happened to me. We actually had sent W5 out of the game for a couple of minutes until the next foul occurred. It happened to be on White 45 and the scorer said that it was only his fourth. At that point, both my partner and I were sure what had happened. I was very confident that I knew his foul total. I had five for this player. The kid said it was his fifth, his coach said that it was his fifth, and the OPPOSING coach even said so. We changed the foul from 5 to 45, disqualified 45 and brought 5 back into the game. It was the right thing to do.

I had a situation similar to this one also. I reported 2 fouls back to back on 40 instead of on 50, realized the mistake a minute later, and confessed. This is good when everybody agrees. A bookkeeping mistake can certainly be corrected. BUT, if A calls time out and both books say A has no time outs, even if you are positive that A has one left, I see no rule that allows you to overrule the official scorer and not call a technical, unless you can convince him/her that a mistake has been made.
e.g. "Remember the time out just before the half, that was B's time out."

"Oh, yeah, I do remember! I charged that one to A. My bad!"