No time out left, or do I

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yes, I do. I also keep track of the AP arrow and team fouls. (plus most of the player fouls, but I didn't say that )

While this is a bit much for some people, here is a nice idea that I use with my partners. If it is a three man crew, the U1 tracks the time-outs of the HOME team and let's his partners know when the team is out of 30s. That way we don't have to ask the coach which type of TO he wants anymore. The U2 does the same with the VISITORS.
(For a two man crew, the Umpire takes the home team and the R takes the visitors.)

Try it, and see if you like it.

Before I swung my officiating goals to football, I was successfully implementing some of what Nevada does. It didn't take long - only 1 season to remember timeouts (sometimes including location on court when requested), team foul counts, and if star players had 4.

I echo the try it sentiment.........

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

It was the right thing to do.

I am the director of officials/#1 official/rules committee of 1 in an 11-12 year old league at a local jr. high every year. A couple of years ago a guy I farm next door to and have known all my life was the coach of a team, which was led by his nearly 6' tall daughter. Naturally, she was a dominant player. One night late in the first half, she picked up what I was positive was her
4th foul, but the table signaled 5. She went out. To make a long story short, (too late) during the 3rd quarter I remembered something, inquired at the table, and found that she only had 4 fouls. We let her back in for the
4th quarter. Doing the right thing in this case confused everybody and pleased nobody. My neighbor threatened to kill me if they lost. (it was a tie) The league director (principal) said "If this ever happens again, whatever you do, keep your mouth shut."

What I learned from this is take nothing for granted. My thought was that it must be 5 fouls, or the wronged player/coach/parents would protest. They did not.

Also, I have been scolded at higher levels for knowing how many fouls a player had. The theory is that this knowledge might subconsciously change a potential call, which is possible. But if a player picks up multiple fouls close together, especially if it is the star, how can anybody watching the game not know?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Also, I have been scolded at higher levels for knowing how many fouls a player had. The theory is that this knowledge might subconsciously change a potential call, which is possible. But if a player picks up multiple fouls close together, especially if it is the star, how can anybody watching the game not know?

There is some truth to that. Of course, the true official is one who is of strong enough character that he will still make what he believes to be the right call despite the situation or the consequences.

You are also absolutely right that the star player knows how many fouls he has, his coach knows, the opponents certainly know, and likely everyone in the building who is a knowledgable fan knows. So why shouldn't the official know too? The fact is that he does. He is a human. Until the game is officiated by robots, there will be normal human influences in calling it.

I once spoke with a Supreme Court Justice regarding the pressures felt by them in making decisions on social issues. He acknowledged that he did the best he could to view these issue intellectually and fulfill his role as a judge, but that people do not live their lives in a vacuum and that SCJs, just like anyone else, are susceptible to these same pressures. These people live in the community, have neighbors, friends, and socialize with the people around them. Their children attend the same schools.
I learned a great deal from my talks with this person.

I believe that the same applies to sports officials. Knowledge is a good thing, just be sure to use it wisely.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you can do it, I'm all for it. No such thing as too much information in this case, I think. But, now what if the book disagrees with you? You say A has no time outs, book says they have one. A calls time out, you say T, everybody else says no, then what?

I had a situation a few years ago where both teams requested a TO at (about) the same time. The TO was granted to A, but the book wrote it down as B. So, when B called a TO later in the game, they were "out". Because I knew who had requested the TOs and how they had been charged, we were able to change the book to what happened and finish a close game without a s***-storm. The tape backed me up.

I always try to keep the TOs in my head.

[Ignats75]

If the Official Scorebook (or sheet in the case of an AAU Tourney) says a team has a TO left, how can a referee overrule that? If the referee has definite knowledge otherwise, proper game management would have required that official to confer with the scorer and then notify the coach. I don't see where there would ever be a problem in this case. Whether you keep track of TOs or not, I can't imagine you would tell a coach he had no timeouts left without verifying this with the table.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

You DO have the authority to make the changes.

The timer and scorer are there to ASSIST the referee and the umpire(s), not to dictate to them. The referee has the final say, not the official scorebook.

2-11-11 "...If the mistake cannot be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official scorebook, unless he/she has knowledge which permits him/her to decide otherwise."

If I have confidence in my count, I'm going to overrule the scorer. I'll take the responsibility upon myself. That's just me, others may not do that.

I disagree Neva...

2-11 Art.11 Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, each foul, each charged time out....notifying the referee @ once of any discrepancy...(for there to be a discrepancy that is found the two book would have contradicting information. Something isn't matching up. )

Some of the examples that have been given were where the official called a foul on one # and the books put the foul on another #. I agree that this is the example in which you could over rule all the books if you have definite knowledge to what # the foul is on. Especially if you are the one that called the foul.(Your argument is that I reported it on # so & so and the book wrote the wrong # down.) However this is a mistake where all books reported the foul but just on the wrong #.

So if the official book and both teams books agree on the TO information and you disagree you would go ahead and allow the time out and change all the books, even no discrepancy was found? Don't see how you could ever do this....You have no verifiable information that backs up your change.( It is possible that you forgot a time out that was taken. How could you prove the change?) You might be able to get by with this @ the lower levels , maybe @ some high school games, but NEVER @ the college level.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, that's what the rule says, Dan.
As for whatever the scorekeeper indicates, I was taught NEVER to leave the game in the hands of the table. Plus with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook, so it doesn't matter what the scorer says, it matters what the referee knows.

Great point!

[Nevadaref]

Gimlet,
There is almost always a videotape, and certainly at the college level, that will back you up, if you are right. Just look at Bob Jenkin's post two above yours.

The referee administers the game, not a piece of paper.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

......with definite knowledge the referee can change anything in the scorebook.

Is this a line from the book? I do not recall seeing it.

If it is a line in the book or if it is a concept that is accepted as being in the book, I'm still concerned about the term "definite knowledge." If you tell the scorer, "You and your book are wrong. I know because I was keeping up with it," (whatever it may be in this case) the only thing I'm fairly certain of is you're going to alienate the scorer. I think you have to put at least a certain amount of trust in your crew, which includes the table, whether you think they are worthy of this trust or not.

[Gimlet25id]

I had a situation a few years ago where both teams requested a TO at (about) the same time. The TO was granted to A, but the book wrote it down as B. So, when B called a TO later in the game, they were "out". Because I knew who had requested the TOs and how they had been charged, we were able to change the book to what happened and finish a close game without a s***-storm. The tape backed me up.

I'm sure when someone said the B team was out of time outs someone on the B team disagreed, @ least enough for Bob to research what had happened. I do believe Bob was correct because he knew who called the time out. The book did charge a time out but to the wrong team. I would bet that the B teams book didn't match up to the home book....DISCREPENCY.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Gimlet,
There is almost always a videotape, and certainly at the college level, that will back you up, if you are right. Just look at Bob Jenkin's post two above yours.

The referee administers the game, not a piece of paper.

I agree that the referee admins. the game. Whenever we are going to make a correction we want to be able to validate the change. In this TO scenario the referee would come in and make a change with all other information saying otherwise, Hmmm... I know @ the collegiate level that will NEVER happen!!!! Besides @ about every college game there is play by play. If I check both books & play by play and they all agree I don't see how in the world you could make a change.

The main reason you wouldn't want to make a change like this is because we could be wrong. Its possible that we forgot just one time out. Hell, in media games you have 4 media's, 4 30's and a full. It's real easy to remember when the full was taken but its a whole lot harder to remember the 30's.

The HS game has 3 fulls and 2 30's. It would be real easy to forget or miss a time out, especially in a close heated game. Now if your down towards the end and the table tells you or confirms that a team or both teams only have 1 left, then it would be a whole lot easier to know if that time out was ever taken.

Neva, you will do whatever works for you. I just can't see changing the TO info if everything agrees. Checking TO's isn't a monitor issue so if your wrong in a close game that the called TO should've resulted in a penalty and don't penalize. Only because your sure they aren't but all the info agrees....well I'm not sure you would ever recover from that.

Keep in mind that it would be extremely rare for both books and play by play to all be wrong. If you think that the team should have time out then check the info, but if it matches then I would just accept the fact that I missed a time out

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Is this a line from the book? I do not recall seeing it.

If it is a line in the book or if it is a concept that is accepted as being in the book, I'm still concerned about the term "definite knowledge." If you tell the scorer, "You and your book are wrong. I know because I was keeping up with it," (whatever it may be in this case) the only thing I'm fairly certain of is you're going to alienate the scorer. I think you have to put at least a certain amount of trust in your crew, which includes the table, whether you think they are worthy of this trust or not.

You will not find that line in the book, but you will find many officials that know when the official book has screwed up and will not continue the game with an obvious mistake. I do not agree with Nevada very often, but he is right on with this one. The problem is Nevada on one hand spends a lot of time trying to tell everyone to read the rules to the letter, but then the next case tries to find a common sense solution to a reasonable problem. You should always use common sense when possible and not allow things to take place that are obviously wrong. It is often hard to know when those mistakes are so clear, but when you do notice, do not allow the rulebook to hamstring you to doing the right thing. If you know for sure a timeout was credited incorrectly, do not continue with that mistake just because the rulebook does not give you a specific direction to solve the problem.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

The bottom line is that the referee has to do what he believes is right.

If I am the referee and I believe that I am right, I am going to change the book. If my partners, the table, and everyone else says that I am incorrect, then I will probably be convinced that I am not right, and won't tell the scorer to make the change. However, if I am sure, then I'm making the change and accepting all of the responsibility for it.

This discussion has not been about whether or not I should do that, but whether or not I have the authority to do it. I contend that rules do grant the referee this power. Whether or not it is used is a matter of judgment.

[Gimlet25id]

I agree!!!

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Besides @ about every college game there is play by play. If I check both books & play by play and they all agree I don't see how in the world you could make a change.

By play by play I guess you mean the computer programs used to track play by play.

Where in the book does it say we can go to the play-by-play to check anything?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

By play by play I guess you mean the computer programs used to track play by play.

Where in the book does it say we can go to the play-by-play to check anything?

It doesn't. It doesn't say that we can't. We can get all relevant information from the table, and our partners to make the right ruling. Its up to the referee to make the final decision. In the OP if I thought there should still be a time out available & the book disagrees I'm going to check the books and play by play before I make a determination. If the play by play has it and the books doesn't, but agrees with what I had then I'm changing on my authority. However if all of it matches then I'm not changing anything.