No time out left, or do I

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

It doesn't. It doesn't say that we can't. We can get all relevant information from the table, and our partners to make the right ruling. Its up to the referee to make the final decision. In the OP if I thought there should still be a time out available & the book disagrees I'm going to check the books and play by play before I make a determination. If the play by play has it and the books doesn't, but agrees with what I had then I'm changing on my authority. However if all of it matches then I'm not changing anything.

The rule says we can use "official courtside replay equipment".

Unless the play by play program includes video playback and is within 12 feet of the court you can't use it. The play by play has no standing.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The rule says we can use "official courtside replay equipment".

Unless the play by play program includes video playback and is within 12 feet of the court you can't use it. The play by play has no standing.

The courtside monitor has no bearing here. Its not a reviewable instance. We are trying to correct a BOOKKEEPING error, if any. The referee will make the final decision. He/she is gathering information from both books, the table crew, and even the play by play. Then after he/she gathers all info then the ruling is soley up to the referee.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The courtside monitor has no bearing here. Its not a reviewable instance. We are trying to correct a BOOKKEEPING error, if any. The referee will make the final decision. He/she is gathering information from both books, the table crew, and even the play by play. Then after he/she gathers all info then the ruling is soley up to the referee.

I didn't say you can use the monitor in this case - my point is even in cases that can be reviewed the play by play has no standing unless its the official equipment.

When correcting book errors the 2 scorers rely on themselves, then they rely on the official book unless the floor officials have definite knowledge. From my experience I'm not trusting the people (students) who enter the information into the computer. Not even as the tie-breaking vote.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

The rule says we can use "official courtside replay equipment".

Unless the play by play program includes video playback and is within 12 feet of the court you can't use it. The play by play has no standing.

There's some official NCAA (or at least NCAAW) writing that says the play-by-play can be used in some circumstances -- and I think this is one of them.

(I know -- this is an amazingly vague post.)

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

......you will find many officials that know when the official book has screwed up and will not continue the game with an obvious mistake.

obvious.......There's another gray term.

If blue 45 enters the game for the first time in the 4th quarter, picks up a quick foul 30 seconds later, and tables buzzes and signals 5, now that's an obvious mistake. A mistake like this is usually resolved quickly. "Oops, I'm on the wrong side of the book. White 45 has 4 fouls, though."
I'm all for straightening this one out.

But midway through the 4th quarter, A calls time out, both books agree that he has none, and the only thing standing in the way of a T is that "I was keeping up with time outs by switching these marbles from my right pocket to my left," I just don't see where I have the authority (or the nerve) to try and make it stick. Since I don't have this authority, I leave the marbles at home.
(what'd he say? lost his marbles?) Hopefully, I will have enough handle on the game to catch these "obvious" mistakes, but I am not going to try to be a one man wrecking crew.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's some official NCAA (or at least NCAAW) writing that says the play-by-play can be used in some circumstances -- and I think this is one of them.

(I know -- this is an amazingly vague post.)

I agree with Bob, this is an amazingly vague post

Maybe you or Gimlet can find the ncaa bulletin?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I didn't say you can use the monitor in this case - my point is even in cases that can be reviewed the play by play has no standing unless its the official equipment.

When correcting book errors the 2 scorers rely on themselves, then they rely on the official book unless the floor officials have definite knowledge. From my experience I'm not trusting the people (students) who enter the information into the computer. Not even as the tie-breaking vote.

Ok. If the books disagree and they call us over we have to make a decision. Rule 2-12 art.13 ".....when no error can be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, unless the referee has knowledge that permits another decision." Checking with play by play would be part of the information the referee can obtain to gain the knowledge needed to make a decision.

The court-side equipment being within 3 to 12 of the playing court is only relevant if we were talking about one of the re viewable monitor plays. Since this is a bookkeeping error we can take whatever information we can get from the table to make a decision.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Ok. If the books disagree and they call us over we have to make a decision. Rule 2-12 art.13 ".....when no error can be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, unless the referee has knowledge that permits another decision." Checking with play by play would be part of the information the referee can obtain to gain the knowledge needed to make a decision.

Yeahbut as I said I don't trust the people who work the play by play machine enough to permit me to change my mind.

Bob said there might have been a bulletin on this. You have it?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Yeahbut as I said I don't trust the people who work the play by play machine enough to permit me to change my mind.

Bob said there might have been a bulletin on this. You have it?

I've been looking for it but haven't found it. If I find it I will post the link. It came across a couple of years ago. I just can't find it in the archives. I do know that its common knowledge in the conferences I work.

I guess its up to you to trust the play by play or not. I have had a couple of instances where I went to play by play. Once in a HS game & once in a college game. Both times they were adults handling the inputing of the info. In my experiences the people who do play by play are very good @ what they do.

Personally I want to get as much info as I can before I have to make a decision. In the case of the OP where its a question of a remaining TO or not. I'm going to go with whatever matches up. It may be the visiting book and play by play, or my partners and visiting book, or official book and play by play....you get the point. I'm for sure not going to change anything if everything matches up.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Ok. If the books disagree and they call us over we have to make a decision. Rule 2-12 art.13 ".....when no error can be found, the referee shall accept the record of the official score book, unless the referee has knowledge that permits another decision."

You seem to have spliced 2 rules together. 2-12 deals with the timer.
2-11 deals with the scorer and has no art. 13.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You seem to have spliced 2 rules together. 2-12 deals with the timer.
2-11 deals with the scorer and has no art. 13.

NCAA Rule book BR-56

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

NCAA Rule book BR-56

Thought we were all in the NFHS book on this one. My fault.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I've been looking for it but haven't found it. If I find it I will post the link. It came across a couple of years ago. I just can't find it in the archives. I do know that its common knowledge in the conferences I work.

I guess its up to you to trust the play by play or not. I have had a couple of instances where I went to play by play. Once in a HS game & once in a college game. Both times they were adults handling the inputing of the info. In my experiences the people who do play by play are very good @ what they do.

Personally I want to get as much info as I can before I have to make a decision. In the case of the OP where its a question of a remaining TO or not. I'm going to go with whatever matches up. It may be the visiting book and play by play, or my partners and visiting book, or official book and play by play....you get the point. I'm for sure not going to change anything if everything matches up.

No need to post ia link,, even if you have a hard copy lay out the guidelines (or email me). Mens or womens?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You seem to have spliced 2 rules together. 2-12 deals with the timer.
2-11 deals with the scorer and has no art. 13.

When I glanced at the NCAA rules this year, it seemed that they had added another article in rule 2. Perhaps this shift happened last year. Correctable errors are now in 11 and I thought that they were always 2-10. Maybe I'm mistaken.

As far as the issue of an NCAA bulletin on this, I would believe that it could well be covered in the D1 handbook that is given out at those regional rules meetings.

I don't own one, have never seen one, and have only heard about what is in them second hand, but from what I hear this is the kind of stuff that is in there.

PS Does anyone know how I can get one?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

When I glanced at the NCAA rules this year, it seemed that they had added another article in rule 2. Perhaps this shift happened last year. Correctable errors are now in 11 and I thought that they were always 2-10. Maybe I'm mistaken.

As far as the issue of an NCAA bulletin on this, I would believe that it could well be covered in the D1 handbook that is given out at those regional rules meetings.

I don't own one, have never seen one, and have only heard about what is in them second hand, but from what I hear this is the kind of stuff that is in there.

PS Does anyone know how I can get one?

I checked my Regional book. Its not covered in there. I will find it and post it.