No time out left, or do I

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

If we do it my way coach B will have learned something and he or she will never, ever make this mistake again (I'm assuming even the coaches in your neighborhood are somewhat trainable). If we do it your way you are depriving coach B of a chance to actually become a reasonably alert and emotionally mature adult who knows and understands basketball.

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

[Jimgolf]

How about assessing a penalty for giving incorrect information?

Oh wait, that's in golf.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, not necessarily. Those are two possible outcomes, but certainly not the only possible ones. Yea, some coaches in my area are trainable, but there are others....

At the level of ball you work, I agree with you completely. Even the 9th grade tournaments you do are composed of teams with coaches, players and parent who study the game, work at their craft and hope to keep moving up the ladder.

But you must remember back to the beginning (I think you started during the Eisenhower administration?!?) that there were some coaches who were just clueless and and equal number of scorekeepers who were the same. Those of us who flounder around in the ranks of the uninitiated have to try to be as humane as possible in working with very unskilled and uninformed folks. In this kind of situation (OP), I'll almost always get both coaches together in the hearing of the score person and let everyone off the hook the first time. Some coaches learn a little from that kind of treatment, too.

I think what these types of coaches will learn is that when things don't go their way based on some notion of "fairness" it's the official's job to wipe their...errr...their tears, that's it, pat them on the head, give them a big hug and a cookie before bending the rules and sending them back outside to play with their friends.

Of course when he runs into some hard @ss who really doeasn't want to hear it (or even a soft touch on a less than good day) this coach will whine & cry that the other ref fixed it for him last weekend and hold his breath until he gets his cookie.

Nah, T 'em up & be done with it. When little Susie innocently asks why the other team is getting to shoot the FTs the coach will be a better person if he/she is able to simply say "because I screwed up Susie, because I screwed up".

[ATXCoach]

Dan,

For the record, if I got T'd up I would accept and understand it, because it is my responsibility to know how many timeouts (or is it times out ) I have left, even if I received bad information from the "official" scorekeeper.

If you don't mind me asking, what level do you guys officiate? You both seem to deal with the biggest a-hole coaches and players know to walk this earth that have nothing better to do then complain about what whistle you use or how you style your hair. I promise you that we are not all like that.

[Gimlet25id]

[QUOTE=ATXCoach]Dan,

For the record, if I got T'd up I would accept and understand it, because it is my responsibility to know how many timeouts (or is it times out ) I have left, even if I received bad information from the "official" scorekeeper.

Atx hit he nail on the head. It's not our responsibility to make sure that the coach's are getting correct information. If they don't want to track the info themselves and they are willing to trust the table then they should also be willing to accept the consequences. I coached for several years @ the varsity level. I NEVER, NEVER relied on the table for any info, (fouls, time outs, opposing teams fouls or time outs.) My assistants only job during the game was to make sure our book was as accurate if not better then the tables. So when I wanted info I could get it right away and I knew it was reliable.

As far as T'g the 9th grade coach. I would...for the simple fact that the coach needs to learn. The biggest part of the kids playing @ this level is to learn. The same would go for the coach's. If you did "T" this coach I guarantee he/she wouldn't rely on the table ever again. If a excessive time out is called for and the don't have one available then the rules dictate that we penalize. The book doesn't say penalize unless the received wrong info from the table. If the coach doesn't like it then in a professional manner explain that to keep it from happening again he should keep a book @ his bench.

I do not think it prevents anything. If the information is wrong, all your talking to the table is going to put you up as the one responsible

I have to disagree with JR on this. I want to know when the team only has 1 time out or if they are out all together. If I relay this info to the coach's then it helps prevent a excessive time out. Most of the time when you remind the coach that they only have 1 time out left or that they are out he/she relays that automatically to the team. As far as getting wrong info from the table...unlikly @ the varsity level on up. This level and up will almost always keep the info themselves. Now I know J'Rs going to say that if they are keeping it why remind them? Well they may not remind their team. If I say something then they more then likely will pass the info on. Never had a coach get mad for reminding them of their time out situation.

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally Posted by OHBBREF

In any game if the timeout number was given out incorrectly by the table or officials I would not penalize, I would get them back on the floor now and off we go

Towards the end of the game the officals should check and see who has time outs and how many - then tell the coaches - if there is a discrepency it can be cleared up then. This eliminates any problem with so called "mis-information"

Please provide a reference for your prescribed mechanic. I believe the book says that it's the official's responsibility to inform the coach when (s)he is out of timeouts.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I have to disagree with JR on this. I want to know when the team only has 1 time out or if they are out all together. If I relay this info to the coach's then it helps prevent a excessive time out. Most of the time when you remind the coach that they only have 1 time out left or that they are out he/she relays that automatically to the team. As far as getting wrong info from the table...unlikly @ the varsity level on up. This level and up will almost always keep the info themselves. Now I know J'Rs going to say that if they are keeping it why remind them? Well they may not remind their team. If I say something then they more then likely will pass the info on. Never had a coach get mad for reminding them of their time out situation.

You have totally missed the point I was making. I did not say you could not do that. If you want to hang out at the table all night that is entirely up to each official. I just know I am not going to do that. I have other things I would like to deal with at that time of the game. Telling coaches how many timeouts they have is not a big priority for me. I also feel that way based on what you said above. You said you did not need anyone to tell you what the timeout situation was when you coached, so why do I need to prevent something you should (and most of the time teams are already doing) know about in the first place? We all do not have to approach the game with the same priorities.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

I also feel that way based on what you said above. You said you did not need anyone to tell you what the timeout situation was when you coached, so why do I need to prevent something you should (and most of the time teams are already doing) know about in the first place? We all do not have to approach the game with the same priorities.

Hello JR good to hear from you. First let me say that I did have the info when I coached and was sure I had it. However I never got upset @ a official for reminding of such information. If anything I appreciated it. Wasn't really implying that you need to approach the game like I do. Since this was a open forum I was just giving my opinion. That all nothing more.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Hello JR good to hear from you. First let me say that I did have the info when I coached and was sure I had it. However I never got upset @ a official for reminding of such information. If anything I appreciated it. Wasn't really implying that you need to approach the game like I do. Since this was a open forum I was just giving my opinion. That all nothing more.

I never said I was concerned about a coach getting upset with me because I gave their timeout situation.

Just like you gave your opinion, I am giving mine. This is an open forum and this is a free country to do what you see fit when you officiate.

Peace

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I never said I was concerned about a coach getting upset with me because I gave their timeout situation.

Just like you gave your opinion, I am giving mine. This is an open forum and this is a free country to do what you see fit when you officiate.

Peace

Fair enough

[BillyMac]

NFHS Rule 2-11-6

"The scorer shall: ... notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out."

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

NFHS Rule 2-11-6

"The scorer shall: ... notify a team and its coach, through an official, whenever that team is granted its final allotted charged time-out."

As BillyMac has posted, an official is required to notify the coach when they have no time-outs remaining. It seems that the officials failed to fulfill a specified duty in this game.

That said, the extra time-out that the team requested is still excessive and must still be penalized with a team technical foul. Just know that this one is the officials' fault. Unfortunately, mistakes happen. Life's not fair sometimes, the game of basketball isn't fair sometimes either. It is a good life lesson.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As BillyMac has posted, an official is required to notify the coach when they have no time-outs remaining. It seems that the officials failed to fulfill a specified duty in this game.

You sure?

This weekend at a 9th grade tournament, Team b coach asks the official scorekeeper (parent of team A player), how many timeouts he had left. Scorekeeper indicates he has 1 timeout left. Both my partner and I hear him tell him he has 1 timeout left.

[bronco]

I think that the level of basketball has some bearing on this. I'm actually a coach, and at the HS level, I would have absolutely no problem with a technical in this situation, every time. At the grade school level, though, the point of the leagues and tournaments are to teach the game and have fun, a lot of times with parents as volunteers as both coaches and scorekeepers. In that case, even w/o rules backup, I can see an official saying right away that they were out of TOs, and start the game back up. I know there is no mechanic or rule/casebook play to back that up, but I could see it being the best way to handle it at younger levels.

I coached for several years @ the varsity level. I NEVER, NEVER relied on the table for any info, (fouls, time outs, opposing teams fouls or time outs.) My assistants only job during the game was to make sure our book was as accurate if not better then the tables. So when I wanted info I could get it right away and I knew it was reliable.

While it is commendable to keep track of these things on your own, the official book is the official book. It doesn't matter if your asst. coach was more accurate, if there is a dispute about these things the official book takes precedence. So I am not sure how this could effectively prevent problems where the official book has incorrect information on fouls, TOs, etc.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by bronco

While it is commendable to keep track of these things on your own, the official book is the official book. It doesn't matter if your asst. coach was more accurate, if there is a dispute about these things the official book takes precedence. So I am not sure how this could effectively prevent problems where the official book has incorrect information on fouls, TOs, etc.

It wouldn't matter. My point was that I wouldn't be asking the table for anything. If my asst. gave wrong info then I would simply have to live with the penalty, if any.