Post Play

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball? Or any player, for that matter?

From an old but still valid NFHS POE on ROUGH PLAY:- "Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a FOUL".

JR,
Please direct me to the reference you are applying in this situation. As for me, a forearm in and of itself does not constitute a foul and to say that it is, seems a little officious. My interpretation of the OP is that they meant every time an arm bar is used is this a foul? It is not unless it impedes, reroutes, or displaces. A forearm can be used to absorb contact as long as it isn't extended.

If I am defending in the post, playing behind and to the side of the offense, I extend an arm to deter the entry pass and I have my off arm in front of my chest and more than likely it is in contact with the offense. If the offense ins't actively working to get the ball, I am not going to call this.

If memory serves the intent of the NFHS was to stop the pushing that players do with the arm bar, is this what you are referring to?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by icallfouls

JR,
Please direct me to the reference you are applying in this situation. As for me, a forearm in and of itself does not constitute a foul and to say that it is, seems a little officious. My interpretation of the OP is that they meant every time an arm bar is used is this a foul? It is not unless it impedes, reroutes, or displaces. A forearm can be used to absorb contact as long as it isn't extended.

If I am defending in the post, playing behind and to the side of the offense, I extend an arm to deter the entry pass and I have my off arm in front of my chest and more than likely it is in contact with the offense. If the offense ins't actively working to get the ball, I am not going to call this.

If memory serves the intent of the NFHS was to stop the pushing that players do with the arm bar, is this what you are referring to?

Nope, your memory is incorrect. the NFHS meant to stop the usage of an arm bar completely. Using the criteria "impedes, re-routes or displaces" basically is the NCAA Mens interpretation, not the NFHS'. The NCAA MENS POE says something to the effect that you can't use a forearm to prevent a player from attaining or maintaining their legal position.

That cite that I made is direct from POE 4A in the 2002-03 NFHS rule book, and it refers to a forearm on any player anywhere on the court. It was also repeated verbatim from the 2001-02 rulebook. The 2003-04 rulebook in POE 2A-7 also stated "When a player jabs a hand or forearm on a player, it's a foul."

Iow, maybe for you, the forearm in and of itself does not constitute a foul, but to the FED it sureasheck does. They said so for three straight years in their rule book.

Now, whether it gets called according to the FED interpretation faithfully is a whole 'nother matter. From the responses in this thread, I'd say that it looks like it depends on the region. Whether any of us agree or not personally, I think that whether the forearm is uniformly called throughout a region is more important anyway. The coaches and players should be able to know exactly what they can do out there from game to game without getting called for a foul.

Btw, in our region, we teach our officials to call the forearm immediately, with the same goal in mind as the FED....to cut down on rough play.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The 2003-04 rulebook in POE 2A-7 also stated "When a player jabs a hand or forearm on a player, it's a foul."

Iow, maybe for you, the forearm in and of itself does not constitute a foul, but to the FED it sureasheck does. They said so for three straight years in their rule book.

This says that jabbing a forearm is a foul. Nothing more.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

This says that jabbing a forearm is a foul. Nothing more.

Um, yeah? And that's basically what the previous two years of NFHS POE's say also, as I cited previously. Iow, a foream is considered an automatic foul under NFHS rules.

I think I might be missing the point that you're trying to make.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I think I might be missing the point that you're trying to make.

Jim is distinguishing between "jabbing" (which the FED says is a foul) and simply having the forearm on the opponent without pushing or extending (which he would say is legal).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Jim is distinguishing between "jabbing" (which the FED says is a foul) and simply having the forearm on the opponent without pushing or extending (which he would say is legal).

And, as I already cited previously from the POE's of 2001-02 and 2002-03, the NFHS rulesmakers have already stated that having a forearm on an opponent is illegal, no matter what. Iow, the FED is not distinguishing between how the forearm is used; they're simply saying that if you lay a forearm on another player in any way, you've fouled that player.

Note that I'm just regurgitating the FED cites; I'm not offering my own opinion in any way.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And, as I already cited previously from the POE's of 2001-02 and 2002-03, the NFHS rulesmakers have already stated that having a forearm on an opponent is illegal, no matter what. Iow, the FED is not distinguishing between how the forearm is used; they're simply saying that if you lay a forearm on another player in any way, you've fouled that player.

Note that I'm just regurgitating the FED cites; I'm not offering my own opinion in any way.

Around here we distinguish between "having a forearm on an opponent" and having a forearm up between the bodies where is't just sort of protecting personal space. Perhaps that's the difference.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, yeah? And that's basically what the previous two years of NFHS POE's say also, as I cited previously. Iow, a foream is considered an automatic foul under NFHS rules.

I think I might be missing the point that you're trying to make.

I'm saying that this particular citation doesn't support the point that a forearm is an automatic foul, since it specifies jabbing, which no one would contend is not a foul.

BTW, in NYC it is called the way Rainmaker posted: If the forearm is not extended, then it is not called a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

I'm saying that this particular citation doesn't support the point that a forearm is an automatic foul, since it specifies jabbing, which no one would contend is not a foul.

And what's your position on the previous two year's citations.

Again, verbatim from the POE- "Use of the forearm regardless of the duration of the contact is a FOUL". Note that the FED capitalized the word "FOUL" in that citation, not me. Iow, if a player puts a forearm on any other player, no matter where it is on the court or for how long, they consider that a foul.

Do you agree with the above NFHS citation? Or are you saying that the FED citation is wrong?

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And what's your position on the previous two year's citations.

Again, verbatim from the POE- "Use of the forearm regardless of the duration of the contact is a FOUL". Note that the FED capitalized the word "FOUL" in that citation, not me. Iow, if a player puts a forearm on any other player, no matter where it is on the court or for how long, they consider that a foul.

Do you agree with the above NFHS citation? Or are you saying that the FED citation is wrong?

Is this the FED citation in it's entirety? I got it off the Iowa referee's website, so it may have been edited for their use:

C. Post Play:

1. The offense can "shape up" to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke," pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.

2. The defense can assume a legal, vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts (initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.

3. When a player pushes a leg or knee into the rear of an opponent, it is a foul.

4. When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in," it is a foul.

5. When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

This seems to allow contact with the forearm except when used to gain advantage. In number 2, when they say "forearms ..." they are referring to a rough forearm movement.

The context here is elimination of rough contact, not simple contact.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, in our region, we teach our officials to call the forearm immediately, with the same goal in mind as the FED....to cut down on rough play.

Because several coaches (a number of local ex-DII players) teach the forearm as a defensive technique, I have taken the track of "talking" the forearm off, even when there is no ball in the post. If I get a chance, I will advise the player(s) that when they begin their college seasons the forearm will permitted.