Post Play

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

If the defender is in back of the offense (offender?!) and the offense is just backing up, and the defender is using the forearm to sort of help maintain position, to brace herself against the offense, then we don't call that. If she has it extended toward the offense, or is pushing, then call it.

If the "offender" is backing down the defender with enough force that the defender has to brace to maintain position, then I would consider an offensive foul here. Someone already said that the defender should not have to use their forearm to brace from a offender in the post. I agree withthat as well.

Smoke

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

If the "offender" is backing down the defender with enough force that the defender has to brace to maintain position, then I would consider an offensive foul here. Someone already said that the defender should not have to use their forearm to brace from a offender in the post. I agree withthat as well.

Smoke

Agree...it's probably about the same as using "screening" or "guarding" principles. We allow screeners to get their arms in front of their bodies to protect themselves, and we allow defenders guarding opponents to brace themselves for a charge. Then we call the contact by who initiates it. If the defender is passive, legal and not proactive with their arms, there's nothing to be called on them imo.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And what's your position on the previous two year's citations.

Again, verbatim from the POE- "Use of the forearm regardless of the duration of the contact is a FOUL". Note that the FED capitalized the word "FOUL" in that citation, not me. Iow, if a player puts a forearm on any other player, no matter where it is on the court or for how long, they consider that a foul.

Do you agree with the above NFHS citation? Or are you saying that the FED citation is wrong?

Is this the FED citation in it's entirety? I got it off the Iowa referee's website, so it may have been edited for their use:

C. Post Play:

1. The offense can "shape up" to receive a pass or to force the defense to deploy or assume a legal guarding position at the side, in front or behind the offensive post player. When the offensive player then uses the "swim stroke," pushes, pins, elbows, forearms, holds, clears with the body, or just generally demonstrates rough physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the offensive player and must be called without warning.

2. The defense can assume a legal, vertical stance or position on the side, front or behind the offensive post player. When the defense undercuts (initiates lower-body non-vertical contact), slaps, pushes, holds, elbows, forearms or just generally demonstrates rough, physical movements or tactics, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.

3. When a player pushes a leg or knee into the rear of an opponent, it is a foul.

4. When a player dislodges an opponent from an established position by pushing or "backing in," it is a foul.

5. When a player uses hands, forearms or elbows to prevent an opponent from maintaining a legal position, it is a foul.

This seems to allow contact with the forearm except when used to gain advantage. In number 2, when they say "forearms ..." they are referring to a rough forearm movement.

The context here is elimination of rough contact, not simple contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

1) Is this the FED citation in it's entirety? I got it off the Iowa referee's website, so it may have been edited for their use:

2) This seems to allow contact with the forearm except when used to gain advantage. In number 2, when they say "forearms ..." they are referring to a rough forearm movement.

The context here is elimination of rough contact, not simple contact.

1) Yes, that's the complete citation with regards to use of a forearm.

2) No, it does NOT allow contact of any kind with a forearm. They are not referring to rough forearm movement; they are referring to any forearm movement. The FED regards simple forearm contact as being a foul- every time- and that's exactly what that POE is saying..

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Yes, that's the complete citation with regards to use of a forearm.

2) No, it does NOT allow contact of any kind with a forearm. They are not referring to rough forearm movement; they are referring to any forearm movement. The FED regards simple forearm contact as being a foul- every time- and that's exactly what that POE is saying..

In essence it says:

When the defense forearms, this is a foul on the defense and must be called without warning.

When you "forearm" someone, you are striking them with your forearm, not merely placing your forearm on them. Placing your forearm on someone is incidental contact.

[ChuckElias]

Jim, you're fighting a losing battle here. The FED does not want the arm-bar in HS games, period. It doesn't matter if it's extending the forearm or holding position. No arm-bars. Honest.

[Jurassic Referee]

What Chuck said....

[BillyMac]

ChuckElias: Sorry that I did not give credit where credit is deserved, but I have learned so much from this Forum, and have incorporated what I have learned into my officiating over the past few years, that I have lost track of who or where I got originally got the ideas from.

For the information of all Forum members, here is my pregame conference outline. Thanks to all Forum members whose ideas have been incorporated into this:

PREGAME CONFERENCE

Court Coverage

Trail’s Primary Responsibilities:
Sideline And Division Line
Last Second Shot
Drives Starting In Primary
Bring Subs In
Weak Side Rebound Coverage

Lead’s Primary Responsibilities:
Endline And Sideline
Post Play
Illegal Screens At Elbows

Stay In Your Primary, It Must Be Obvious To Come Out Of Your Primary

Coaches And Captains
- Players properly equipped.
- Players wear uniforms properly.
- Practice good sportsmanship.

Double Whistles
- Let’s both hold our preliminary signal and not give a block or player control signal.
- Make eye contact with each other.
- Give the call to whoever has the primary coverage, unless you definitely have something different that happened first.
- Opposite signals: Assess both fouls. Count the basket if the ball was released before the contact. Resume with the Point of Interruption.

Pass And Crash
- Let’s have the Lead official follow the pass, stay with the ball.
- The Trail will be responsible for the crash.

Out-Of-Bounds Help
- If I have no idea and I look to you for help, just give a directional signal. No need to come to me. Just point.
- If I signal but I get it wrong, then blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.

Press Coverage
- Help each other. New Lead will wait at midcourt.

Technical Fouls
- If I T a coach, get me away from the coach. The situation is heated and I don’t want to whack the coach back-to-back. Let’s move away from the benches. Non calling official should inform the coach that the coaching box privilege has been lost.
- Let’s get together and make sure we administer the penalty or penalties correctly and in the correct order and at the correct basket.
- If one official issues a warning to somebody (player or coach), make sure the other official knows. If I’ve already warned the coach, the coach shouldn’t get a free shot at you.

Two-Point / Three-Point Shot
- If one official incorrectly signals the number of points, the other official will simply blow the whistle immediately, discuss the play with our partner, come to a decision, signal the correct number of points to the table, and resume the game. We will only correct if we are 100% sure.

Goaltending And Basket Interference
- 99% of the time, the Trail will be responsible for the call.
- Lead can help out on a quick shot in transition, when Trail hasn’t made it into the frontcourt yet.
- Let’s remember that it’s never basket interference or goaltending to slap the backboard. Coaches and fans always want it, but we can’t award the points.

Last Shot
- 99% of the time, the Trail will be responsible for the call.
- Let’s both have an opinion, in case Trail’s not sure.
- How will we handle a full-court pass when the Trail is stuck in the backcourt?

Foul Mechanics
- Preliminary signal given at spot of foul for all common fouls.
- Calling official must designate throwin spot or number of shots.
- Noncalling official, get the shooter. If the ball enters the basket, inform partner that ball went in.

Throw Ins
- Ten players, eye contact, check table, check clock.

Timeout Mechanics
- When the ball is dead, we must be alive.
- Team calling timeout must have player dribbling or holding the ball.
- Both officials must know the game situation when play resumes following a timeout (team, direction, spot or run baseline, shooter, number of shots).
- One official at spot of throwin or free throw line with ball facing direction in which it will be put into play. Other official at division line, quarter for 30 second and three quarters for 60 second.

Post Play
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Let’s not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Let’s make sure the offensive player isn’t holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, let’s find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDD’s. Don’t let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace, or Dislodge.

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
- Two hands on the ball-handler is a foul. Automatic.
- One hand that stays on the dribbler is a foul.
- Let’s not let a defender ride the dribbler as the ball is coming from backcourt to frontcourt.
- Remember SBQ. If the dribbler’s Speed, Balance, or Quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

Screens
- We must work hard off the ball.
- In the first half especially, let’s clean up the screening action. The screening action will be right in front of the defensive coach in the first half, so if the coach sees an illegal screen, we should too.
- In the second half, with the defensive coach 60 feet away, let’s be aware of the screening, but we don’t need to focus quite as hard on it. If there’s an obvious call to be made, let’s absolutely make it; but we won’t make it our “point of emphasis” in the second half.

Consistency
- Let’s see if we can call the same game. Be consistent with each other.
- Let’s try to remember what we’ve called earlier in the game, and what we haven’t called. Be consistent with what has already happened in the game.
- If I have a very close block/charge play and I call a blocking foul, then the next time you have a similar block/charge play, you should have a blocking foul.

Game Situation Awareness
- One of us should quickly check the clock after every whistle to make sure the clock stops properly.
- One of us should check the clock every time it should start to make sure it does so.
- Let’s try to be aware of the foul count during the game. We don’t want to be surprised when it’s time to shoot the bonus. If we know that the next foul will result in bonus free throws, we’ll be more likely to remember our shooter.

Last Two Minutes
- We’re not calling anything in the last two minutes if we haven’t already called it earlier in the game, unless it’s so blatant that it can’t be ignored. We don’t want our first illegal screen to be called with 30 seconds left in the game; but if the illegal screen puts a player into the first row of the bleachers, then we have to call it.
- Let’s not put the whistles away in the last two minutes: That wouldn’t be consistent with the way we’ve been calling the game. If the game dictates it, let the players win or lose the game at the line. We don’t want to be the ones who decide the game by ignoring obvious fouls just to get the game over.
- End of game strategic fouls: If the winning team is just holding the ball and is willing to take the free throws, then let’s call the foul immediately, so the ballhandler doesn’t get hit harder to draw a whistle. Let’s make sure there is a play on the ball by the defense. If there’s no play on the ball, if the defense grabs the jersey from behind, or if the ballhandler receives a bear hug, we should consider an intentional foul. These are not basketball plays and should be penalized as intentional.

2006-07 Rule Changes:
- Changed the guidelines for headbands and sweatbands.
- Added that a school logo/mascot is also permitted on the pants, compression shorts, sweatbands and headbands.
- The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock when a timer’s mistake has occurred.
- A fourth delay situation was added for water on the court following any time-out.
- Changed the procedure for delay warnings to only one warning for any of four delay situations (previously three).
- Established a new signal for a team-control foul. The arm is extended and the fist is punched.
- Clarified that a player who has any amount of blood on his/her uniform shall be directed to leave the game until the situation is corrected.
- Clarified that a closely guarded count is terminated when an offensive player in control of the ball gets his/her head and shoulders past a defensive player.
- Clarified that an unsporting foul can be a noncontact technical foul which involves behavior not in accordance with the spirit of fair play.
- Clarified that a player is one of five team members who are legally in the game at any given time except intermission and that during an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.
- Clarified that during a 30-second time-out, no on-court entertainment should occur.

2006-07 Points Of Emphasis:
- Concussions
- Uniforms
- Time-outs
- Intentional Fouls
- Rule Enforcement/Proper Signal Use

Connecticut Mechanics:
- Arms extended not closely guarded signal.
- Point to floor for two point field goal try.
- No long switches when foul is called in the backcourt and there is no change of possession or direction.
- Team members are not allowed to congregate at midcourt during introductions.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Stay In Your Primary, It Must Be Obvious To Come Out Of Your Primary

Pass And Crash
- Let’s have the Lead official follow the pass, stay with the ball.
- The Trail will be responsible for the crash.

Two-Point / Three-Point Shot
- If one official incorrectly signals the number of points, the other official will simply blow the whistle immediately, discuss the play with our partner, come to a decision, signal the correct number of points to the table, and resume the game. We will only correct if we are 100% sure.

Well, nice list to read while you're getting dressed & stretching.

But don't tell me you discuss all this stuff in mid February before going out to work the big game in front of a gym packed with people who hate each other. Or with partners you already know and trust. Rule changes after working them during scrimmages then Nov, Dec & Jan?

What about:
Team rivalries? Team tendencies? Past experience with either or both teams? Individual player and coach emotional makeup? Unusual plays you've been bitten by? Plays you're having trouble with? Maybe your partner's having a family problem and you need to buck him up for the next hour and a half? Maybe you got yer azz chewed by the boss at work today? Got a speeding ticket on the way to the game? That's what I want to hear. Reading thru a canned list of stuff isn't exactly what gets me prepared for a game.

Anyways, thanks for putting in the effort to type this. In particular I don't agree with the 3 I've left here.

[ChuckElias]

Dan, what's wrong with the pass/crash guideline? That's how I handle it (since it's essentially my pre-game -- which I stole from Art McDonald ).

I agree with you about changing the 3pt/2pt. No need to meet and discuss. I know JR disagrees with us about that.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Dan, what's wrong with the pass/crash guideline? That's how I handle it (since it's essentially my pre-game -- which I stole from Art McDonald ).

I agree with you about changing the 3pt/2pt. No need to meet and discuss. I know JR disagrees with us about that.

If you see a foot on the line on a 3pt/2pt in the trouble area I like to just blow the whistle let the table know a foot was on the line and put the ball back in play.

Pass and Crash, we can handle this different ways, we just need to make sure we don't have two/three guys watching the ball and missing a huge crash.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Dan, what's wrong with the pass/crash guideline? That's how I handle it (since it's essentially my pre-game -- which I stole from Art McDonald ).

I agree with you about changing the 3pt/2pt. No need to meet and discuss. I know JR disagrees with us about that.

So Chuck, do you really go through all that stuff in every pre-game? I agree with Dan that it's too much and too detailed, and it leaves out some really important stuff, like how the partner(s) is feeling, and whether everyone has mastered the rule changes for this year.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Jim, you're fighting a losing battle here. The FED does not want the arm-bar in HS games, period. It doesn't matter if it's extending the forearm or holding position. No arm-bars. Honest.

"If a player contacts an opponent with a forearm, it is always a foul".

How hard is that to write?

It doesn't say that.

NFHS, please hire a writer. Or at least an English Major. Maybe you could pay Mr. Annoying Grammar Guy to edit this stuff before sending it out?

I have no argument with what you and Jurassic are saying the interpretation should be. Just that the citation doesn't support it, IMHO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Billy Barty

I agree with you about changing the 3pt/2pt. No need to meet and discuss. I know JR disagrees with us about that.

If the 3 was shot in my primary?

I'd smack you silly if you pulled that one!

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

So Chuck, do you really go through all that stuff in every pre-game?

No, never. Every pre-game is going to be different for me, although I know that some people have a checklist that they go through every time.

The pre-game always begins one of two ways. If I haven't worked with the person very often, I start with "Have you had either of these teams before?" This lets the other person share whatever insight s/he has about style of play, talented players, etc. If I know the person pretty well and we've worked together, I usually ask, "How was Coach A last time you had him?" This again gets my partner to share some insight into what we might expect tonight.

Then we can move into (1) Coverage, (2) Contact, and (3) Game Management issues. And not all them always need to be discussed. For a guy that I've worked with 100 times, we don't need to talk about coverage. But we still need to talk about how we handle post play (even tho we both pretty much know already), and how we'll handle table screw-ups Coach A's blow-ups, etc.

For me, any list (even one that I wrote) is just a guide for the night's conversation.