Rough Post Play

[Rick82358]

I know that we were told in the begining of the year to clamp down on the rough play in the post. So why don't we? In fact why haven't we?
I had to take this year off due to back surgery in August. So I have spent a lot of time this year reviewing games and films.
But the thing that irrates me is that he are calling the hand checks out front,(which are the right calls), but we are allowing guys to just back each other all over the post without making the calls.If we are going to call the hand check as contact, what goes on in the post has to qualify as a contact foul also.
I have the last 10 years of rule books on the shelf in my den and I bet that for at least the last eight years rough play in the post has been a point of emphasis.
You know that if we make the calls there consistently in a couple of years they may take that one off the list!
The fans also have a problem with us as officials calling the hand check out front 35 Ft. from the basket while it looks like two guys sumu wrestling for position at the post.
Explain the logic?

[JRutledge]

Handchecks have to do with a ball carrier, post play had to do with players that do not have the ball for the most part. For a foul to be called, you must have some kind of displacement. I have seen in the Big 10 Tournament all weekend players in the post really not pushing each other like it appears. Get up closer you see two individuals causing contact with each other. And considering that many times the offensive player is doing most of the moving, what do you think is suppose to be called?

First of all, listening to fans is kind of ridiculous. Fans only complain about calls that affect their team or what the feel will affect their team. I saw some Iowa fans complain about a rebound where a Penn St. player made some contact after the loose ball, but the contact did not cause the Iowa player to do anything that was illegal or move in a way. The Iowa fans went nuts, and all the Penn St defender did was literally touch him. That was it. And all this time I am hearing how the officials on the floor probably call more fouls than any other officials in the Big 10 put together. The suggestion is that they did not let players play the game. Now you tell me how do you win?

See the problem of what you said is "it looks like sumu wrestling in the post." What it looks like and what it is are two different things. Many times players are just moving around each other, and because post players tend to be stronger than most on the court, it looks much worse than it is. Much of the movement is caused by the players themselves. I mean if an offensive player is moving towards the ball, many times it is because that is where he wanted to be. Look, basketball is a contact sport, players are going to have contact, if you call all contact you would call 80 fouls on one side alone in a game.

[Rick82358]

But the things that we do see are guys backing players down after they set legal guarding position. The offensive player just moves the defenderintoward the basket? Why do are we not calling the offensive foul in that situation.
I realixe that what it looks like and what are going on are two different things. but the flaling arms that are going around in the post to gain a position advantage are as much contact as a handcheck out front. The advantage is position. that is what we are not calling. The bodies bouncing off of each other really are not a problem. It is the arms pushing for position advantage that gets me. I make that call and I get a ton of grief for that. Yet it is as much of guide or control as a hand check.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Rick82358
I make that call and I get a ton of grief for that.

This is EXACTLY why it's not called. Rough post play was not a NFHS POE this year. But it has been over the past few years. Intentional fouls and Palming/Carrying were POE. I started out the season calling both per the POE but soon learned that coaches were not ready to accept it. It was either back off or start calling a lot more technicla. My booking agent felt it was better to back off.

Bottom line - The POE is a wasted page in the rule book.

[JRutledge]

One problem you are not considering is all the flopping and acting many of these players do. They barely get touched and you would have thought they were shot. They push and look at the official for a call against them. Post play is not very easy to call. Players are doing most of the moving themselves, as an official you have to determine who did what and how does it affect the play. At least in my games I talk players out of problems if I can. Because if you call every push or hold regardless of to what degree and where the ball is or is not, we would be calling more fouls than playing the game. I know this is not what you want to hear, but I say this again, basketball is a contact sport. Basketball is not a sport that players are not going to run into each other from time to time. It is our job to decide what was intentional, incidental, severe or minor. That is why we get payed the big bucks, just that simple.

Originally posted by Rick82358
But the things that we do see are guys backing players down after they set legal guarding position. The offensive player just moves the defenderintoward the basket? Why do are we not calling the offensive foul in that situation.
I realixe that what it looks like and what are going on are two different things. but the flaling arms that are going around in the post to gain a position advantage are as much contact as a handcheck out front. The advantage is position. that is what we are not calling. The bodies bouncing off of each other really are not a problem. It is the arms pushing for position advantage that gets me. I make that call and I get a ton of grief for that. Yet it is as much of guide or control as a hand check.

[Rick82358]

I am not looking to extend the game into a three hour marathon, and I understand advantage/disadvantage. My point is this: If a player (offensive or defensive) has established a legal guarding position, and the opposing player uses hands, arms or just brute force to move that player out of their established position, that is a foul.
If a player "flops" or is looking at me for a foul very rarely are they going to get more than some remark designed to get them to play the game, and quit looking for an oscar.
(Remember "floping could be rewarded with a "T" if it continues. I have never had to issue one for that because a quick warning usually puts a stop to it).
I understand contact is a part of the game, but you have to reward a player for doing what is proper in establishing position, if he is disloged from a legal position.
It is something like calling a charge if a defensive player jumps straight up into the air from a legal position and the player driving to the basket runs the defender down. I have made that call, it is unpopular, but it is right.
Making the right call is important and should not be influenced by coaches or assigners. But in practicality we know how that works, with assigners and then coaches rating officials.
My thought process is this: if officials as whole were more consistent on how things were called, there would be less of a need for technicals for not liking a particular call, and assigners wouldn't be telling us to back off. Ultimately, the game would evolve to how the game is called. It might even become more of the sport it was designed to be. Not FULL CONTACT basketball, but more the game of speed and skill it should be.
I am probably thinking of Zandu, but then nothing is perfect!

[112448]

I think Rick has a valid point. The following appeared in a memo, dated Dec. 19, 2000 from Hank Nicholls, the NCAA National Coordinator of Men's Basketball Officiating:

"Post Play. Offensive post players without the ball are being allowed to use their lower arm and/or arms illegally to keep defensive players from fronting far too often. This action has not been officiated nearly as well as is necessary. By allowing an offensive player to illegally prevent a defensive player from moving is a tremendous advantage and causes the defender to either foul his opponent to obtain a fronting position or give up any chance of playing defense. Post players who use the lower arm to prevent opponents movement commit a foul, and it must be called."

"Bodychecking is becoming more prevalent because of the emphasis on handchecking. Bumping an opponent with the body is a foul and should be called as consistently as handchecking."

I think those two points back up what Rick is trying to say. Obviously if Hank Nicholls thinks it's important, then it's something that all officials should feel is important.

Jake

[JRutledge]

No one said to allow another player to dislodge another, but that is not what usually goes on. One player moves in front of the other, while the other moves back. Yes they might be using some hands and arms to gain position, but if there is not displacement and if there is you got a foul. But again I am going to be considering advantage/disadvantage every time. I am going to consider if they have the ball or if they are passed to them. And if I can I will warn and talk players out of any illegal action, if they do not listen, I blow my whistle.

I think guys you also need to understand that Hank Nichols is over Men's NCAA Basketball, not NF or any other level. So because Mr. Nichols finds it important, does not mean that the rest of us are to consider what he says unless we are at that level.

But the thing that we want to have is consistency. And no matter how much contact, you have to be consistency in whatever you call.

Peace

[Rick82358]

I disagree that just because it is stressed at the NCAA level we should ot necessarily call it at the NF level.
I think that to a point if we at the NF level were to make those calls more often it would help our Bretheren at the NCAA level out. The players would be more in tune to the game when they arrive there.
But J has found the the key to it all we need to be consistent. Both as individuals and partners.
You do have to take into consideration the advantage/disadvantage situation of a play. But remember a foul, is a foul, is a foul. Talking with a player is good thing to do but the most important thing as an official is to establish control of the game.
I started doing b-ball under the Carol Cosby. Long time veteran NCAA offical who passed away in the early 90's Carol's theory of the game was this: the first 2 minutes of each half were the most important in setting the tone for the game. If you established control warly onyou could back off if the flow of the game dictated such, but you could always re-establish control quickly, since you had it early on. But if you didn't have it you were not ever going to get.
There are games that have been called very loosely and then in the final two minutes when the game is on the line the officials are forced to try to get control of the game because the play has gotten very rough ( because they have allowed it throughout and now it is getting out of hand), and the officials are calling everything that changes the tone of the game when, the play is most important.
That why consistancy throughout the game is most important.
This is why Carol brought his theory to the game. It was effective throughout his carrer, and I think I have used it effectivly in mine.
I may not be able to respond for about 10 days as I leave for Ireland on Thursday, for ST Patricks day, but keep the conversation going.
I'll Tip a Guiness for all of you! (Please send cash as I am not paying for them all)
Top o' The Morning to all!

[JRutledge]

foul is a foul is a foul if you do not consider some kind of advantage/disadvantage principle? All I could see is if the contact was purposely rough, but that is still to be considered on advantage/disadvantage.

[jamieod]

It has all been said quite well. I will only add that it really is an advantage/disadvantage issue and being consistent at both ends. That is what the coaches really want. I am not saying that is how the rule reads but it will get you "through the game" pretty much unscathed.
Jamie O'D.