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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 12:17pm
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Post Play

Do you allow a defender to get an elbow up on the post player if he is not pushing in any fashion??? Just leaning into each other a little?? or do you not allow anything?? Varsity boys...Thanks
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 01:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidMadness
Do you allow a defender to get an elbow up on the post player if he is not pushing in any fashion??? Just leaning into each other a little?? or do you not allow anything?? Varsity boys...Thanks
You have to ask yourself a simple question: Did the defender prevent fluid movement of the offensive player by his actions? If the elbow prevents the offensive player from getting around or impedes his progress, I say yes the defender caused contact that was illegal. If the offensive player was not put at (an old term) a "disadvantage", then it is probably legal.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidMadness
Do you allow a defender to get an elbow up on the post player if he is not pushing in any fashion???
When you say "elbow", I'm going to assume you mean a forearm, when the arm is bent at the elbow. I would never allow a player to use his actual elbow.

In a college game, I will allow the forearm in the post if the two players are simply leaning on each other. If there is some jockeying for position, then I usually try to clean it up by saying "straight up!" Once the ball is in the post, no forearm, period.

In a HS game, no forearm in the post. I use "straight up" right away, whether they are just leaning or not. If they don't clean it up, it gets a whistle and a quick, "no arm-bars" to the coach if s/he asks.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 01:44pm
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Post play is something that should be addressed early in a game. The first time a team sets up; it is clear what the players are likely to do during the game. I will not allow any arm bar during a game without being talked out of, or just calling fouls. I would not allow this even in a college game because the people I work for think this is a foul considering the position of the NCAA and POEs that have come out in recent years.

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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 01:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidMadness
Do you allow a defender to get an elbow up on the post player if he is not pushing in any fashion??? Just leaning into each other a little?? or do you not allow anything?? Varsity boys...Thanks

What you are describing I let go if both post players can handle the contact.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 04:09pm
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This is hard because NFHS just puts this in their POE section every 1 out of 10 years, and college does not have great guidelines either.

In HS the norm seems to be that you can't put a forearm on a player regardless of whether you are using it to just hold your position or not, which I personally think is wrong, because the advantage is fully to the offensive player now because it makes it harder for the defensive player to hold his ground. JMO though.

In the college game the status quo seems to be that a forearm is ok until the post player who has the ball starts to dribble on a back down, which again I think puts the defender at a disadvantage, but you know what they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 04:15pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
In the college game the status quo seems to be that a forearm is ok until the post player who has the ball starts to dribble on a back down, which again I think puts the defender at a disadvantage, but you know what they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
I have to disagree that this is allowed at the college level. I attended two D1 camps this past summer and I heard one of the supervisors that ran one of the camps express this is a foul. Then in the other camp it was explained that this should not be allowed and the term "this is not the NBA" came up a couple of times. You might see some contact with a forearm, but it does not seem to persist. It is not called as consistently, but I do not see someone just leave their forearm and it not be called when I watch major college ball. Small college there might be a hit and miss.

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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 05:36pm
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First , this is an excellent question & u can already see it carries several different opinions.Great topic to cover in pre game and at half time. Looking at it from the college, this is a form of hand checking. Very much so in the post. Without the ball I will allow him to have it there but not to guide but to brace or "feel". With the ball, only to brace for initial contact then drop it (to brace) any movement by the offense to make a offensive move with the elbow on-defensive foul.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 05:53pm
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Pregame Conference Re: Post Play

Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Letís not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Letís not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Letís make sure the offensive player isnít holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, letís find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDDís. Donít let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 06:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Letís not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Letís not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Letís make sure the offensive player isnít holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, letís find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDDís. Donít let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.
impressive. thanks for sharing that with me.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 06:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Letís not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball? Or any player, for that matter?

From an old but still valid NFHS POE on ROUGH PLAY:- "Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of the contact, is a FOUL".
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 08:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
Here's what I discuss with my partner in our pregame conference regarding post play:

Post Play
- Letís not allow a defender to use a forearm on a player with the ball.
- Letís not allow a defender to use a leg or knee to move a player off the block.
- Letís make sure the offensive player isnít holding off the defender, or holding him with his off-hand.
- As Lead, letís find the post matchup as soon as possible so that we get the first foul.
- Remember the RIDDís. Donít let players: Redirect, Impede, Displace,or Dislodge.
I know this is going to sound snotty, and I don't mean it to. But it would be nice if you credited the author when you quote their stuff. This is lifted directly from my pre-game notes, which I posted here: Looking for a detailed pre-game
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 08:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Does that mean that it's OK for a defender to use a forearm on a post player without the ball?
In college, yes, that's what it means. But as I distinguished above, not in HS.
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 09:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckElias
When you say "elbow", I'm going to assume you mean a forearm, when the arm is bent at the elbow. I would never allow a player to use his actual elbow.

In a college game, I will allow the forearm in the post if the two players are simply leaning on each other. If there is some jockeying for position, then I usually try to clean it up by saying "straight up!" Once the ball is in the post, no forearm, period.

In a HS game, no forearm in the post. I use "straight up" right away, whether they are just leaning or not. If they don't clean it up, it gets a whistle and a quick, "no arm-bars" to the coach if s/he asks.
Yeah, what he said...
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Old Mon Sep 25, 2006, 09:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64
In HS the norm seems to be that you can't put a forearm on a player regardless of whether you are using it to just hold your position or not, which I personally think is wrong, because the advantage is fully to the offensive player now because it makes it harder for the defensive player to hold his ground. JMO though.
The advantage is only to the offense if the officials allow the offense to run over the defender without calling an offensive foul. The defender shouldn't be compelled to use their arm to maintain thier position.
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