Post Play

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Father Time

If the 3 was shot in my primary?

If I was certain that you missed it, yup.

I'd smack you silly if you pulled that one!

Yeah, right. Like you could catch me.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

No, never. Every pre-game is going to be different for me, although I know that some people have a checklist that they go through every time.

The pre-game always begins one of two ways. If I haven't worked with the person very often, I start with "Have you had either of these teams before?" This lets the other person share whatever insight s/he has about style of play, talented players, etc. If I know the person pretty well and we've worked together, I usually ask, "How was Coach A last time you had him?" This again gets my partner to share some insight into what we might expect tonight.

Then we can move into (1) Coverage, (2) Contact, and (3) Game Management issues. And not all them always need to be discussed. For a guy that I've worked with 100 times, we don't need to talk about coverage. But we still need to talk about how we handle post play (even tho we both pretty much know already), and how we'll handle table screw-ups Coach A's blow-ups, etc.

For me, any list (even one that I wrote) is just a guide for the night's conversation.

Well, that makes more sense. I've never understood why go through the whole list as in the Official's Manual.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Verne Troyer

If I was certain that you missed it, yup.

Yeah, right. Like you could catch me.

Let me change the scenario slightly then......

I would rip off the arm that you signalled the 2 with and then I would club you over the head with the wet end, followed by ripping off your flattened head and crapping down your neck.

Iow, I beg to differ.

Which also begs the obvious follow-up question.....

What would you do if I changed your changed call back to a 3, without conferring with you also, because I was 110% positive that I had it right all along?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old Fart

If the 3 was shot in my primary?

I'd smack you silly if you pulled that one!

I know he's already silly, so it wouldn't change anything. But just curious as to why that's a big deal? Isn't the same as changing an OOB call if one of your partners sees a tip you didn't, for example?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by NotTooSmartChicagoCubFan

I know he's already silly, so it wouldn't change anything. But just rious as to why that's a big deal? Isn't the same as changing an OOB call if one of your partners sees a tip you didn't, for example?

Are you serious?

Um, have you read NFHS rule 2-6 lately?

You'd change an OOB call that your partner made on his line without discussing it with him first?

I'd smack you sillier too if you ever tried that....and I know where you live.

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know he's already silly, so it wouldn't change anything. But just curious as to why that's a big deal? Isn't the same as changing an OOB call if one of your partners sees a tip you didn't, for example?

Oh don't get him started. No. On an OOB, you get together and offer the information, then the calling official decides whether to change the call.

But I'm suggesting that when it's a blown 2pt/3pt call, that we don't confer. Since I know you blew it, I'll just tell the table it's a 2 and we move on. He hates that. So when I work with him, I won't do it. But it's what we do around here.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Let me change the scenario slightly then......

I would rip off the arm that you signalled the 2 with and then I would club you over the head with the wet end, followed by ripping off your flattened head and crapping down your neck.

Iow, I beg to differ.

Which also begs the obvious follow-up question.....

What would you do if I changed your changed call back to a 3, without conferring with you also, because I was 110% positive that I had it right all along?

Errr...say what?

Either the shooter's foot was on the line or it wasn't. It's black and white, no uncertainty. The rule is clear, either he's on or within the line or he's not. If you come to me to ask "did you see his foot on the line?" what am I going to say? "Of course I did but I'm giving him 3 anyways". Or maybe "No I didn't, and neither did you, you lying sack of sh1t." No need to confer, just fix it and move on.

This differs when you come to me to give help on an OOB.

"Did you see the ball tip off white's hand?"
"Yes I did. Did you then see the ball tip off blue's knee right after that?"

There's far less certainty.

BTW Chuck, on a pass/crash I prefer to let the person who's primary it is stay with the crash and the off-official go with the pass.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Toulouse Lautrec

On an OOB, you get together and offer the information, then the calling official decides whether to change the call.

But I'm suggesting that when it's a blown 2pt/3pt call, that we don't confer. Since I know you blew it, I'll just tell the table it's a 2 and we move on.

So......iow you just unilaterally decide when you should discuss changing a call with your partner and when you should just go ahead and over-rule your partner with bothering to talk to him? Is that pretty much the gist of it?

Helluva mechanic.......

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

BTW Chuck, on a pass/crash I prefer to let the person who's primary it is stay with the crash and the off-official go with the pass.

I know this is the rulebook was to do it, but my preference is to have whoever's with the ball stay with the ball, and whoever was already seeing the defender stay on the crash.

Or is that what you said?

[ChuckElias]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So......iow you just unilaterally decide when you should discuss changing a call with your partner and when you should just go ahead and over-rule your partner with bothering to talk to him? Is that pretty much the gist of it?

No, we multilaterally agree that this is how we'll handle the situation as a team. And we're going to trust each other to use the mechanic only when it's obvious that we've missed the original call.

Don't worry, Grumpy. We won't do it that way when we work together.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

So......iow you just unilaterally decide when you should discuss changing a call with your partner and when you should just go ahead and over-rule your partner with bothering to talk to him? Is that pretty much the gist of it?

Helluva mechanic.......

We do it the same way around here. Sometimes a T or C is in a bad position to see if it's a 3 or a 2. (quick crosscourt pass and the T or C ends up behind the shooter). It's their primary so they take an educated "guess." (I could sugarcoat it, but it's a guess in that case).

The other outside official has a clear view and sees that it was obviously missed. We trust each other and help out in that case. No discussion necessary. Quick whistle and signal the correct number of points. We got it right and we move on.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Some old guy who's laxative stopped working

So......iow you just unilaterally decide when you should discuss changing a call with your partner and when you should just go ahead and over-rule your partner with bothering to talk to him? Is that pretty much the gist of it?

Helluva mechanic.......

No.

We discuss it at pregame and bilaterally or trilaterally decide that's the way we're doing it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Errr...say what?

Either the shooter's foot was on the line or it wasn't. It's black and white, no uncertainty. The rule is clear, either he's on or within the line or he's not.

If you come to me to ask "did you see his foot on the line?" what am I going to say? "Of course I did but I'm giving him 3 anyways". Or maybe "No I didn't, and neither did you, you lying sack of sh1t." No need to confer, just fix it and move on.

Err....say what?

I certainly agree with the highlighted statements.

But....where does it say that if I'm 110% sure that the shooter's foot wasn't on the line and the call was in my primary, that you can just go ahead and over-rule me and say the foot was on the line?

If anybody ever tried to pre-game that one with me, I'd tell 'em to go find another partner. Homey don't play dat game!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by ChuckElias

Oh don't get him started. No. On an OOB, you get together and offer the information, then the calling official decides whether to change the call.

But I'm suggesting that when it's a blown 2pt/3pt call, that we don't confer. Since I know you blew it, I'll just tell the table it's a 2 and we move on. He hates that. So when I work with him, I won't do it. But it's what we do around here.

Chuck, I agree with you. I'm not sure how it is where he lives, but where I live it's the same as where you live. (Huh?) There is no discussion on a 3 pt. vs. 2-pt. shot - if my partner sees something that I didn't and changes my call, I will either thank them later, or I'll do the arm-beating, bloody-stump thing. But it will be a very rare occurance, and will most likely happen close to those "gray areas" of coverage. If I'm at C watching a shot from the corner, and my partner at L changes my call, I will do JR's suggestion, even if my partner was right, because they were looking well out of their area.

However, I will disagree with you and Dan slightly on the OOB call - I tell my partners to not ask me a question, but to come up and give me information. Don't ask me if I happened to see the ball go off white's noggin', because if I did I wouldn't be giving the ball back to white on the throw-in, now would I? Come and tell me the ball bounced off white's head, and I will be the one to decide to change my call, or keep it the same because I saw it bounced off blue's foot after it hit white's head.

However, if I do happen to work with old farts with way more experience than me, I will do it their way as well. That's what pre-games are for, right?

[ChuckElias]

JR is never going to agree with Dan and me on this. How do I know? B/c we already hashed it to death here: Changing your partner's call

I'm going to excuse myself from this thread now. . .