Fight during game

[BloggingRefGuy]

Let's grant everything--let's assume the kid who got pummeled did all kinds of terrible stuff--elbowing, name-calling, shoving, or worse. Let's assume the kid who did the pummeling did nothing in the lead-up.

Does ANYTHING justify four punches to the head of an unconscious person? Ever? Nobody who's coming to the defense of the attacker has answered that to my satisfaction.

Yes, we don't know started it. Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing. But that's not what's at issue here. No matter who the instigator was (and I agree that we don't have enough information to tell), once you've got a defenseless unconscious kid on the ground, only a really, really dangerous human being would punch him four times. Anger management is in order...or maybe juvie. How does this attacker react if one of us accidentally cuts him off on the highway?

In spite of my earlier question to this effect, nobody has convinced me otherwise. It is not the cause of the attack that's disturbing here--it's the severity of it. In this conversation, that issue has been overlooked. So I'll put it back up at center focus:

Does anybody want to sugggest that repeated punches to the face of a prone, unconscious person are defensible or reasonable under any circumstances?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

1) Does ANYTHING justify four punches to the head of an unconscious person? Ever? Nobody who's coming to the defense of the attacker has answered that to my satisfaction.

2) Yes, we don't know started it. Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing.

1) Well, I don't think most posters- including Dan_Ref- are really trying to justify anything. They're just saying that the Lawrence kid instigated this mess with his shove. The other kid retaliated to that instigation. Couldn't be clearer and simpler from the posted video imo.

2) Sorry, but also imo both of those statements are absolutely ridiculous. The only real evidence that we have is the video, unless you've got some other evidence that we aren't privy to. That video clearly shows the Lawrence kid starting the fracas with his push. Or are you saying that there wasn't a push? On your other statement, I'd also like to know how you know that the officials are partially to blame also. Did you see anything else but the video posted at the start of this thread? Were you at this game? Could you please give us some explicit examples of exactly where the officials failed to keep control of this game? I eagerly await your enlightment. Personally, I couldn't ever say anything like that because all I've seen is a few seconds of a video clip. Exactly how could they have officiated this game more carefully?

Prediction- you'll never see charges in this case unless both kids are charged. That was not an unprovoked attack. Note that certainly doesn't exonerate the Wichita kid; both kids are equally to blame imo. Trying to hold the Lawrence kid blameless though is just ridiculous.

Note- that's my opinion. Nobody is gonna answer anything to your satisfaction either obviously; your opinion is completely different. We're just gonna haveta disagree on this one.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

The only real evidence that we have is the video, unless you've got some other evidence that we aren't privy to. That video clearly shows the Lawrence kid starting the fracas with his push. Or are you saying that there wasn't a push?

I'm saying we don't know what happened in the entire game leading up to the one trip down the floor we saw. I agree--the only evidence we have is the video. I don't think this kind of thing happens as a result of one trip down the floor. It's certainly possible the attacker actually "instigated" the previous trip down the floor, or the one before that, or in the first quarter. You're right...we don't know. So we can't for sure say the Lawrence kid was the instigator without having been there...for the very reasons you give (there's evidence we're not privy to).

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

On your other statement, I'd also like to know how you know that the officials are partially to blame also. Did you see anything else but the video posted at the start of this thread? Were you at this game? Could you please give us some explicit examples of exactly where the officials failed to keep control of this game?

That's fair enough...I wasn't there. But think about a game you've officiated or seen where there has been a fight. (I've had one in my seven years.) It is the extreme exception for something like this to spring up out of the blue. In the game I officiated with a fight, I know there were things my partner and I could have done differently to prevent the swings from starting...in this game, it was ugly picks. If I call them, is there a fight? I doubt it. Maybe, though. Either way, I cannot wash my hands of my responsibility.

I wasn't at this game, but I'm willing to bet that it's a similar case, and if the officials are anything like me, I bet they feel awful about it. There's no way to prove it, as we agree, but I'd bet a C-note this fracas could have been prevented with tighter officiating earlier. At the very least, an official could have caught the Lawrence push, tooted the whistle repeatedly, and closed in before the Wichita kid has a chance to swing. I know...hindsight is 20/20.

It's not my intention to slam or attack the officials here, or anywhere, ever. (After all, there but for the grace of God go any of us...if we haven't been there already.) But I don't think it's an attack to observe that this situation likely could have been avoided...to try to learn from it.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That was not an unprovoked attack. Note that certainly doesn't exonerate the Wichita kid; both kids are equally to blame imo. Trying to hold the Lawrence kid blameless though is just ridiculous.

I haven't done that. However...and this point keeps getting lost...punching an unconscious kid is four times never justified. I don't care what the kid did to bring on the first punch...when he's out cold, the fight ends. Anyone who punches an unconscious person in the face four times has serious problems. He may have had a push coming, or even a punch. But not once he's unconscious.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Note- that's my opinion. Nobody is gonna answer anything to your satisfaction either obviously; your opinion is completely different. We're just gonna haveta disagree on this one.

And we will. I appreciate your civility.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

I'm saying we don't know what happened in the entire game leading up to the one trip down the floor we saw. I agree--the only evidence we have is the video.

It's not my intention to slam or attack the officials here, or anywhere, ever.

Exactly.....that was my point......if you don't know all of the details, don't speculate. The officials in this game deserve the benefit of any doubt imo.

[BayStateRef]

The follow-up from the Wichita coach and the league:

The player has not played for Showtime since. Maples {Wichita coach] said he suspended him for two tournaments and that he is out of town for the summer.

Mid America Youth Basketball president Greg Raleigh suspended the player from MAYB tournaments and suspended the team for the remainder of the spring season, which ended May 7.

Full story: http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

[BayStateRef]

Here is a link with video that starts a few seconds earlier -- when the Lawrence team gets the ball after a turnover under the other team's basket.

http://www.kake.com/news/headlines/3221576.html

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

The follow-up from the Wichita coach and the league:

The player has not played for Showtime since. Maples {Wichita coach] said he suspended him for two tournaments and that he is out of town for the summer.

Mid America Youth Basketball president Greg Raleigh suspended the player from MAYB tournaments and suspended the team for the remainder of the spring season, which ended May 7.

Full story: http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/14892378.htm

Thanks for the follow-up info. As usual, the story from the other side is just a little different:

"Coulter provoked the fight."

"He threw an elbow to my player's head and another to the back of his jaw. You see that if you watch the whole video and not just clips. He provoked it."

"He hit my guy first".

"I think I elbowed him in the chest when we were running down the floor, and he pushed me. So I pushed him back..."

"You know what I haven't heard yet? An apology from the other player. I've never heard him apologize for starting this."


One organization suspended their kid for his involvement in this incident. The other organization did....what?

Thanks again for providing a counterpoint.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

I haven't done that. However...and this point keeps getting lost...punching an unconscious kid is four times never justified. I don't care what the kid did to bring on the first punch...when he's out cold, the fight ends. Anyone who punches an unconscious person in the face four times has serious problems. He may have had a push coming, or even a punch. But not once he's unconscious.

We're beating up this kid pretty good for his unjustifiable behavior, about his serious problems, about how he needs anger management, about how he's capable of becoming a road rage menace (typical boogie-man bull**** intended to imply that any one of us could be his next victim) all because we assume he knew the kid was unconscious and continued beating him anyway. How sure are you that he knew? Have you interviewed the kid? Have you read the reports of those that did? Do you have anything more conclusive to go on than the "victim's" side of the story and that he looks unconscious in the video? The whole incident took, what? ... 5 seconds? During the entire fight was there ever a moment when the kid stopped swinging long enough to assess the state of his opponent? Given the adrenaline that would be flowing, is there any reasonable expectation that such a thought would even occur to him during this short time?

I'm hearing an awful lot of smugly self-assured, idealistic, all-inclusive and very judgemental statements about this kid from people who weren't there, don't know him, and have only seen about 10 seconds of video and heard one side of the story. One side of the story, I might add, that came from the guy who lost the fight, has an axe to grind, and whose role in the incident is suspect. I don't know why charges were never brought, but I'm going to have to assume that it's because the actual facts don't support it.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

During the entire fight was there ever a moment when the kid stopped swinging long enough to assess the state of his opponent? Given the adrenaline that would be flowing, is there any reasonable expectation that such a thought would even occur to him during this short time?

Reread that. You seem to think that under some circumstances--for instance, if your adrenaline is really cooking, or you haven't taken the time to figure out that your victim is unconscious because punching the kid so thoroughly and effectively--that it's acceptable or reasonable to whale on a kid you've already knocked out.

I disagree. And that's the way it's going to stay.

[TravelinMan]

Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight. The tape clearly shows that: (1) The Lawrence kid pushed the Wichita kid.(And I don't think the Lawrence kid pushed for no reason; the tape shows both players leaning on each other as they are coming up the court so it was more a case of "get off of me") (2) In response, the Wichita kid pummelled the Lawrence kid with unnecessary excessive force not letting up until the coaches pulled him off of the Lawrence player. One has to wonder what would have happened if the caoches had not intervened.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

Axe to grind, huh. Have you ever been assaulted or had a friend assaulted? Let's get one thing straight.

Once again emotion is driving people's response on this.

Originally Posted by TravelinMan

The tape clearly shows that: (1) The Lawrence kid pushed the Wichita kid.(And I don't think the Lawrence kid pushed for no reason; the tape shows both players leaning on each other as they are coming up the court so it was more a case of "get off of me") (2) In response, the Wichita kid pummelled the Lawrence kid with unnecessary excessive force not letting up until the coaches pulled him off of the Lawrence player. One has to wonder what would have happened if the caoches had not intervened.

That is an excellent question! What would have happened if it weren't for the coaches? You know, like the Lawrence kid's dad. When you hear out both sides, both sides say that there was at least one elbow thrown by the Lawrence kid. Was there just one elbow or multiple, incidental or intentional? We don't know. The video is shocking, to be sure. But we've only been shown about 10 seconds of it. We cant' say with any certainty what led to the fight. But we do know that fights don't generally materialize from nothing. So what really happened? We don't know.

But if the Lawrence kid is out there throwing elbows, who taught him that? Who coached that? Who allowed allowed one of his players to do it? Could it be Dad/coach? And if that is true (again, we don't know), are either of them likely to fess up to their role in what happened? Or are they more likely to go to the press with 10 seconds of shocking video and a carefully excised story because they don't think they got treated fairly by the DA?

No matter how emotional this story makes you, there are enough questions that remain unanswered and enough plausible allegations by the Witchita coach that one cannot reasonably take the Lawrence kid and his dad entirely at face value. The fact is they have an axe to grind. And that has nothing to do with whether I, or a friend has ever been assaulted.

Like I said before, after reviewing the original complaint, the prosecutor didn't see fit to bring charges. Why not? Perhaps because the actual facts do not present nearly as clear and compelling a case as this little PR stunt would have us believe.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

Reread that. You seem to think that under some circumstances--for instance, if your adrenaline is really cooking, or you haven't taken the time to figure out that your victim is unconscious because punching the kid so thoroughly and effectively--that it's acceptable or reasonable to whale on a kid you've already knocked out.

I disagree. And that's the way it's going to stay.

Reread it yourself. Once again you've got the cart pulling the horse. You cry about how wrong it is that the kid would blatantly "whale on a kid you've already knocked out." You assume that the kid knew the other guy was unconscious. And it's by no means a good assumption.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Reread it yourself. Once again you've got the cart pulling the horse. You cry about how wrong it is that the kid would blatantly "whale on a kid you've already knocked out." You assume that the kid knew the other guy was unconscious. And it's by no means a good assumption.

Very true. Why would that kid know the other guy [who 1) was not moving, 2) not fighting back, and 3) not defending himself] was unconscious??

My answer.....because this is a kid who severely snapped and has some serious anger issues.

Chuck - I've double-checked this post for mis-spellings as well, none found. Rest easy.

[JRutledge]

Life is complicated. If you are looking for a simple solution for a complicated issue you are fooling yourself. The kid got hit repeatedly in the face and the kid that was getting hit probably started it to some extent. Does one action justify the other? I really do not think that is the point. The point is something got out of hand and it is an unfortunate issue. I was not there, so it is hard for me to say what the kid should have done or not done in that situation. I think so many times we want to come to a "one size fits all" solution or opinion on these kinds of issues.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BloggingRefGuy

Yes, a more carefully-officiated game could have prevented this whole thing.

What do you base this expert opinion on?